VAL Digest V2 #196

VAL Digest          Thursday, March 24 2005          Volume 02 : Number 196




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Topics in Today's Digest:

[VAL] Re: VAL Digest V2 #195
[VAL] LED light fixtures?
Re: [VAL] Dan C's LP system?
RE: [VAL] LED light fixtures?
Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
Re: [VAL] LED light fixtures?
RE: [VAL] 40 Amp Fuse
[VAL] Re: Replacement furnace
Re: [VAL] Re: Replacement furnace
RE: [VAL] 40 Amp Fuse
Re: [VAL] 40 Amp Fuse
RE: [VAL] 40 Amp Fuse
Re: [VAL] Re: Replacement furnace
Re: [VAL] LED light fixtures?
Re: [VAL] LED light fixtures?
Re: [VAL] Re: Replacement furnace
Re: [VAL] WBCCI acceptance of other trailers

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 03:00:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Mike <highcotton@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V2 #195

The Mississippi Magazine article Anne referenced was my inspiration to get an 
Airstream.  I knew nothing about them until reading that article, and then I  
WAS  HOOKED!  The coach is an early 1970s [Sovereign, I think] which she 
renovated with mod-'60s George Jetson colors, fabrics, light fixtures, etc.  I 
am not a purist, either, but with my coach being built in 1965 I do not want 
to use any paint on the walls or cabinetry.  I have to say that she did one 
fine job on that coach and it would qualify from the cover of House & Gardens 
Magazine if it was a house.  If anyone wants a see a  copy of the article, I will 
try to scan & email it to you  ["try" being the operative word here... haven't 
quite figured out the scanner, either].
 
You know what they say about people from the South:  If they are not related, they 
at least know each other.  Had I signed my full name, Anne would have known who I 
am.  I didn't know she had the Airstream bug.    deColores!  Maybe we can get our 
own little Airstream Club going down here.  If there is anyone else closeby, let 
me know.
 
I want the best of both worlds with my Airstream.  Although I plan to use mine as 
a pool/guest house I also want it roadworthy to hit the trail when the mood [or Anne 
and Ronnie] calls.  Thanks for this service.  As I learn a bit more, I am sure I will 
realize just how much I don't know.

Mike Boyd
Greenville, Mississippi
 
highcotton@xxxxxxxxxx.com
 


Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:22:36 EST
From: ABLUTIONS@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V2 #194

Mike in Greenville, Mississippi ---

This is Anne & Ronnie Mollere down the road in Jackson. We have been owners 
of a '62 Globe_rotter (missing our T but have an idea on how to replace it & 
if it works, I'll have something to contribute to the forum!) for 2 whole 
weeks. 

We need to get together and discuss some of our ignorance ! Even if we 
can't be of much help each other, we could be a source of support ! Also, you 
are only the 2nd Airstream owner we've found in the state and I really think we 
need to flush the others out and maybe form some sort of chapter or such. 
The lady (who wants to remain anoymous) whose Airstream was in MISSISSIPPI 
MAGAZINE was the 1st but she is only interested in using hers for a customized 
guest house -- it's gorgeous but we want to go on great adventures with 
Tramper so he needs to be safe and we need to know how to keep him that way!) This 
forum is WONDERFUL and everyone has been so gracious & helpful -- I now 
believe that "Hospitality" is not just "Southern!"

Anne (& Ronnie) Mollere
Jackson, Mississippi

_ablutions@xxxxxxxxxx.com_ (mailto:ablutions@xxxxxxxxxx.com) 
_remollere@xxxxxxxxxx.com_ (mailto:remollere@xxxxxxxxxx.com) 
=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:21:59 -0800
From: "MK / JS" <sn2244@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] LED light fixtures?

All this talk about 12 Volt light fixtures makes me wonder about LED. (I am
not an engineer or electrician)

My understanding is that LED uses less energy than any other light,
including flourescent, which is what we're all after, right?

So, are there LED light fixtures available for 12 volt systems?

I have numerous LED portable lamps (solar and conventional battery),
including a very bright flashlight -- it's wonderful.

Anybody out there have input?

Marg
PacNW

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:33:26 EST
From: JSmith1805@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] Dan C's LP system?

Dan if you are going withjust battries and solor why not build a battery box 
to mount on the toung wher the lp tanks used to be? the weight should not be a 
provlem I carry a 200+lb generator onthe toung of my all electric Tradewind 
the extry weight makes it trail better It also has a 30 gal water tank behind 
the front sofa so weight is no provlem for me.
Jim Smith

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:44:51 -0700
From: "Forrest McClure" <forrest@xxxxxxxxxx.org>
Subject: RE: [VAL] LED light fixtures?

Marg,

Direct replacement bulbs for many 12 volt lamps are available in LED. For
instance see:
http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=CAR

They are a bit pricey though.

Forrest

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:32:27 -0600
From: root <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?

On Wed, 2005-03-23 at 00:27 -0500, Tom wrote:
<SNIP>
> 
> But, I know what I saw.  I will get the *facts* as to how these 20-inch 
> fluorescent lamps which normally would be working "correctly as designed" in 
> their 12-volt environment I witnessed.
> 
> Fair enough?
> 
> Tom Meeker
> 
It will be interesting to know what devices are between the lamps and
the 12 volt battery. Its the nature of gas discharge lamps (fluorescent,
neon, HID, and sodium vapor) that the lamps need external controls to
start the discharge and to limit the current once fired. That's a
fundamental. And that discharge won't occur with less than 60 volts
depending on the gas mixture. Some take more voltage.

Gerald J.

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:10:54 -0600
From: root <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] LED light fixtures?

On Wed, 2005-03-23 at 08:21 -0800, MK / JS wrote:
> All this talk about 12 Volt light fixtures makes me wonder about LED. (I am
> not an engineer or electrician)
> 
> My understanding is that LED uses less energy than any other light,
> including fluorescent, which is what we're all after, right?
> 
> So, are there LED light fixtures available for 12 volt systems?
> 
> I have numerous LED portable lamps (solar and conventional battery),
> including a very bright flashlight -- it's wonderful.
> 
> Anybody out there have input?
> 
> Marg
> PacNW
> 
LEDs are a moving target. The light output and efficiency numbers
increase with each new press release. The light spread increases slowly.
Getting a high intensity is easiest the more the light is focused from
the diode. And the designers have been superb at narrowly focused LED
optics.

Prices tend to be a bit high, but are coming down, partly from
competition.

I have a LED flashlight, I'm unable to tell the battery life, three
years so far on the first set of AA Alkalines (two cells) and I measure
the light output as being similar to the light output of my 3 D cell
flashlight that I've have since grade school. This has not been with
constant use, but with very intermittent use.

While a few months behind the news releases, Mouser Electronics
(http://www.mouser.com) has some LED replacements for automotive 12 volt
lamps in stock and at not quite the high prices of the most recently
announced products. Most of the LED replacements put the light out the
top of the lamp as most recent automotive applications are arranged that
way. Lamp sockets in my Caravel nearly all use the light out the side of
the lamp and since an incandescent filament radiates in all directions
it has equal output to that out the top. The incandescent lamp can get
efficiency from a reflector external to the lamp. The reflector is all
in the LED so we can't modify that light distribution so handily.

I see some LED replacements for lamps at Walmart in the automotive
corner. Red LEDs are more efficient and far better at color control than
an incandescent lamp behind a red lens for turn and tail signals. Many
centered stop lamps in recent cars and trucks use red LEDs and
noticeably get to full brilliance faster than the incandescent lamps in
the tail lights. At least its noticeable if you watch closely.

At the moment, area lighting from LEDs takes spreading many LEDs over
the area to be lit, they don't work well from a central fixture. Task
lighting though, can work well with LEDs providing the lamp holder can
be aimed at the task.

There is new news about LEDs for lighting in every issue of "electronic
products" magazine that I receive monthly. And sometimes news of a "new"
product that would have been news ten years ago, but a neophyte
publicity department didn't notice how far behind the product was.

Gerald J.

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:24:39 -0500
From: <pcfranke@xxxxxxxxxx.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: [VAL] 40 Amp Fuse

Gerald, 

Any reason not to simply replace with blade-type fuse block and fuses???

         -- Lew #4239

'72 Safari
Still stuck in Ohio -- again.

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:45:03 -0500
From: Patricia Raimondo <praimondo@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Re: Replacement furnace

An alternative to replacing the existing furnace would be to install a wall 
attached propane fireplace. In my 67 Safari I removed the furnace to gain 
valuable storage space and installed a marine propane fireplace, which I also 
installed on  my 54 Flying Cloud. I think it looks "way cool" and it does a 
great job of heating along with being able to watch the burning flame thru the 
door. I installed it on the wall to the left as you enter the FC. Furnaces take 
up a lot of space!




Patti Raimondo
Boulder, Colorado
1954 Flying Cloud
WBCCI # 3221
Vintage Airstream Club
Denver Unit
Washington DC Unit

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:43:00 -0600
From: "Don Hardman" <donhardman@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: Replacement furnace

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Patricia Raimondo" <praimondo@xxxxxxxxxx.com>


> An alternative to replacing the existing furnace would be to install a
wall attached propane fireplace.

Is there a web site to look at these. Thanks

Don

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:42:27 -0600
From: root <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: RE: [VAL] 40 Amp Fuse

On Wed, 2005-03-23 at 14:24 -0500, pcfranke@xxxxxxxxxx.netcom.com wrote:
> Gerald, 
> 
> Any reason not to simply replace with blade-type fuse block and fuses???
> 
>          -- Lew #4239
> 
No reason at all other than originalitalus. I believe that the
automotive industry has gone to the blade type fuses for a few good
reasons.

1. The blade type fuses are lower cost to make. Easier to make automated
machinery for their manufacture.

2. The blade type fuses are more compact so there can be more circuits
in a given space.

3. The blade type fuses and their holders get better contact to the
circuits (and use the crimp on spade lug female connector used all over
the vehicle) and so suffer fewer problems from poor contacts at the
fuses.

Note that blade type fuses come in three sizes of blades and cases and
the largest ones are most appropriate for high current (40 amp)
applications.

Now about that long word up top, "originalitalus." That's a new word I
invented today, hoping that the Latin scholars amongst us won't tar and
feather me. I intend it to mean the desire to keep everything in the
vintage trailer as it came from the factory whether or not improved
products and procedures available today make the trailer more livable
and whether or not repairs for the original are available today.

Clearly some members of the VAC and this list are affected by
originalitalus and some are not. Its up to the individual to decide
which is most healthy or desirable.

Gerald J.

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:08:07 -0600
From: "Don Hardman" <donhardman@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 40 Amp Fuse

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "root" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>

> No reason at all other than originalitalus.

Great word, I can't wait to use it, but with my Texas accent I don't think I
can pronounce it. But I did add it to spell check.

A year or so ago I also was needing the large fuse ( I guess it was the 40
Amp) for my 1976 Sovereign. I checked with Chris Jones at Bob Jones RV and
they had a replacement. Unlike to old glass bulb, the fuse they had, had a
cardboard type cover between the two end connectors. He told me that he did
not have any of the old glass fuses in that size. I took two and the
replacement is still working. Chris also told me that when I was ready he
could replace the entire circuit board with the newer technology and current
type fuses. I told him that when the replacements failed I would let him do
that. Since it is still working I guess I will hold out and maintain my
"originalitalus" at least in this area.

Don

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:15:06 -0600
From: root <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: RE: [VAL] 40 Amp Fuse

OK, its Buss that says the AGS is marginal above 30 amps. They repeat it
for every variation on that size in my oldest Buss catalog. They list
these variations in my newest catalog (at least a decade old) only in
the index with a * and a footnote saying "Older style fuse or device and
not recommended for new design."

Littlefuse says, "Fuses of 35 amperes and over are not recommended for
continuous duty at 100% of their rating due to heat dissipation problems
in this size of fuse and holder."

Fuses that are usable in AGS holders include:
AGS
4AG
ABS
4AB
MDM
MDC

The first two are fast blow with glass tubes. The middle two are fast
blow with ceramic tubes. The last two are slow blow (time delay) in
glass or ceramic tubes. The old Buss catalog recommends using the time
delay fuses for incandescent lamps and motor loads where there is an
increased current at starting. 4AG and 5AG are both ancient military
nomenclature and Littlefuse family  I recall seeing the 5AG size fuse in
WW2 vintage surplus transmitters sometimes. As 9/32" is not far from 7
mm, I wonder if that size was chosen to match European fuse sources for
military equipment.

Fuses with ceramic tubes are considered more rugged though they make
visual inspection of the fuse wire impossible. A fuse can fail open
without blowing so that a visual inspection of the glass and wire
doesn't reveal the failure. Its possible for the wire to develop a
hairline crack from slight overload, many repeats of on/off cycling, or
vibration so its often necessary to check a fuse with some electrical
test to be sure its good.

Slow blow or time delay fuses reduce the incidents of nuisance blowing
from short term overloads like lamp or motor starting.

Some DC motors can draw several times their running current until they
get up to speed. High speed DC motors don't have such a starting surge.

Incandescent lamps draw 15 to 16 times their operating current when
first connected to the power. That's because the cold resistance of the
filament is that much lower than its resistance when white hot.

Gerald J.

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 16:30:13 -0500
From: Dave Lowrey <airstream@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: Replacement furnace

Patricia Raimondo wrote:

>An alternative to replacing the existing furnace would be to install a wall 
attached propane fireplace. In my 67 Safari I removed the furnace to gain valuable 
storage space and installed a marine propane fireplace, which I also installed on  
my 54 Flying Cloud. I think it looks "way cool" and it does a great job of heating 
along with being able to watch the burning flame thru the door. I installed it on 
the wall to the left as you enter the FC. Furnaces take up a lot of space!
>
>  
>
I have see Patti's furnace, and I echo the "way cool" sentiment. One thing to keep 
in mind, however, is that the forced air furnaces also blow warm air around your 
pipes and holding tanks. This is a good thing if you camp in freezing weather.

I think I will delay replacing my furnace and install an Olympian Catalytic furnace. 
AIMHO it's a lot better option when boondocking, as no electricity is used.

Then, I can wait till I can find a good deal on the furnace to replace it...

Dave

- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Dave & Ann Lowrey - WBCCI: 5074
dave_lowrey@xxxxxxxxxx.com

1977 31' Sovereign International - Mid Bath

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 17:49:41 -0500
From: Daisy Welch <jtdjtd@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] LED light fixtures?

MK / JS wrote:

> All this talk about 12 Volt light fixtures makes me wonder about LED. (I am
> not an engineer or electrician)
> 
> My understanding is that LED uses less energy than any other light,
> including flourescent, which is what we're all after, right?
> 

GO see this:

http://home.tiac.net/~jtdjtd/aspix/LED/LED.html

Daisy AKA the LED Queen

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:17:39 -0500
From: Dave Lowrey <airstream@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] LED light fixtures?

Daisy Welch wrote:

> GO see this:
>
> http://home.tiac.net/~jtdjtd/aspix/LED/LED.html
>
> Daisy AKA the LED Queen
>
Daisy,

What size "brick" do you have in your outside light (the one over the door)?

Dave

- -- 
- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Dave & Ann Lowrey - WBCCI: 5074
dave_lowrey@xxxxxxxxxx.com

1977 31' Sovereign International - Mid Bath

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 18:29:09 -0500
From: "Tom" <thomm@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: Replacement furnace

Dave,

Before you spend any money on a Catalytic furnace please do your homework. 
After you look into the why's of "why you shouldn't use a Catalytic furnace 
in an RV" I think you will change your mind.

Catalytic furnaces require a source of fresh air for combustion; most advise 
to leave a window open 1" or more (doubt you'd do this in the winter). 
These types of furnaces *also add loads of humidity* to the interior of your 
RV.

People have died in tents when using a small catalytic heater for warmth 
when the roll-up canvas window shut when the wind blew hard enough - they 
never woke up.

The military also has stories about our soldiers who've died using catalytic 
heaters when the oxygen levels go very low and the CO gas got very high. 
Dying from CO poisoning is miserable as carbon monoxide binds to the blood 
cells and STOPS the cells from absorbing oxygen even AFTER the hazard is 
removed.

Please rethink your options.

Tom Meeker
WBCCI 5303



From: "Dave Lowrey" <airstream@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: Replacement furnace


> I think I will delay replacing my furnace and install an Olympian 
> Catalytic furnace. AIMHO it's a lot better option when boondocking, as no 
> electricity is used.
> Dave 

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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 21:16:12 -0500
From: "Brian Brown" <bbrown3996@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] WBCCI acceptance of other trailers

I just read the post from Rick and all the conversation that transpired that 
resulted in banning some folks from this email list..

hmm.. it's kind of petty to me. all of it

now.. back to Airstreams and the transfer of information.  Of which is why I 
am here

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End of VAL Digest V2 #196
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