The Vintage Airstream E-mail ListDigest Archive Files
VAL Digest V2 #195
VAL Digest Wednesday, March 23 2005 Volume 02 : Number 195
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Topics in Today's Digest:
RE: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
[VAL] RE: 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures
Re: [VAL] Dan C's LP system?
Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
[VAL] Re: VAL Digest V2 #194
RE: [VAL] 40 Amp Fuse
Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
RE: [VAL] 40 Amp Fuse
Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
RE: [VAL] 40 Amp Fuse
[VAL] Memphis TN
Re: [VAL] Memphis TN
Re: [VAL] Memphis TN
Re: [VAL] Memphis TN
[VAL] Accessory step storage bracket.
[VAL] Testing 1 2 3 - Please Ignore
Re: [VAL] Accessory step storage bracket.
Re: [VAL] Accessory step storage bracket.
Re: [VAL] Accessory step storage bracket.
Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
Re: [VAL] Dan C's LP system?
Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
Re: [VAL] Dan C's LP system?
Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
[VAL] Thanks Tom
RE: [VAL] Memphis TN
Re: [VAL] Dan C's LP system?
Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:26:47 -0500
From: "Dave Lowrey" <airstream@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: RE: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
>One of the neatest things I witnessed was the installation of two 120-volt
>fluorescent lights hidden behind the window cornices that are above all of
>our windows in our Airstream trailers. This fellow had these 120-volt
>fluorescent lamps hooked up to 12-VOLT instead of the 120-volt you'd
>expect.
>The result? A warm, homey glow to the front of the trailer where the
>living
>area was. These were the 20-inch variety and have been there for over TEN
>years or more.
>It stands to reason that a 120-volt fluorescent bulb will light off the gas
>with a 12-volt power supply. After all, you are not trying to light up a
>filament for light like a regular light bulb, all you are doing is warming
>up tiny filaments which light off the fluorescent gas inside the tube.
Tom,
He just hooked up 12 volts DC to an 110V AC Fluorescent fixture and it
worked?
Are you sure you don't need to replace that ballast or something like that?
Dave
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dave & Ann Lowrey - WBCCI 5074
1977 31' mid bath Sovereign International
Cincinnati, OH
airstream@xxxxxxxxxx.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:45:01 -0500
From: "Dave Lowrey" <airstream@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] RE: 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures
I found the web site I was looking for:
http://www.windsun.com/Misc_AE/Thin-Lite.htm
Dave
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dave & Ann Lowrey - WBCCI 5074
1977 31' mid bath Sovereign International
Cincinnati, OH
airstream@xxxxxxxxxx.com
_____
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:04:09 -0600
From: Daniel Childress <daniel@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Dan C's LP system?
Tom,
My wife has a medical problem that will not allow any lp. No heat,
refeer, water heater lp can be used.
Dan
>Dan,
>
>What happened to the LP system?
>
>Tom Meeker
>
>
>From: "Daniel Childress" <daniel@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
>
>>Rob
>> We are using the batteries for everything. No lp. Batteries will
>>power refer, lights, entire
>>Caravel.
>> We are also looking at a Tundra as a tow vehicle. Presently
>>using a Sienna.
>>Dan
>>
>>>We also have a 69 Caravel and I have no idea where I
>>>would locate a 48 in. box. Our battery power is one
>>>12 volt deep cycle which has gone 5 days for us, of
>>>course that is careful use.
>>>
>>>Are you using 6 volt motorcycle batteries?
>>>
>>>Rob and Carole
>>>San Diego
>>>69 Caravel
>>>02 Tundra (has not towed yet)
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
>To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:06:44 -0600
From: "Chaplain Kent" <Chaplainkent@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
I bought new 12 volt fixtures from a place in Indiana. RV Surplus Inc.
www.rvsurplus.net or e-mail Trina at rvsurplus.net and let her know what you
want and she will give you availability and price. This place is gigantic and
has stuff in every corner and stacked high on shelves. Prices are great.
Chaplain Kent
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Lowrey
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 8:26 PM
Subject: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:22:36 EST
From: ABLUTIONS@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V2 #194
Mike in Greenville, Mississippi ---
This is Anne & Ronnie Mollere down the road in Jackson. We have been owners
of a '62 Globe_rotter (missing our T but have an idea on how to replace it &
if it works, I'll have something to contribute to the forum!) for 2 whole
weeks.
We need to get together and discuss some of our ignorance ! Even if we
can't be of much help each other, we could be a source of support ! Also, you
are only the 2nd Airstream owner we've found in the state and I really think we
need to flush the others out and maybe form some sort of chapter or such.
The lady (who wants to remain anoymous) whose Airstream was in MISSISSIPPI
MAGAZINE was the 1st but she is only interested in using hers for a customized
guest house -- it's gorgeous but we want to go on great adventures with
Tramper so he needs to be safe and we need to know how to keep him that way!) This
forum is WONDERFUL and everyone has been so gracious & helpful -- I now
believe that "Hospitality" is not just "Southern!"
Anne (& Ronnie) Mollere
Jackson, Mississippi
_ablutions@xxxxxxxxxx.com_ (mailto:ablutions@xxxxxxxxxx.com)
_remollere@xxxxxxxxxx.com_ (mailto:remollere@xxxxxxxxxx.com)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:19:09 -0600
From: root <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: RE: [VAL] 40 Amp Fuse
Digging into my fuse data books (2" notebook with more than that of
catalogs) I see this: The three letter fuse types are typically from
Buss Fuse. The first one I opened doesn't admit an AGP, but does show
the AGU which is 13/32" in diameter.
The AGC fuse family goes up to only 30 amps which is plenty for the
contact area of the 1/4" diameter fuse. These are 1-1/4" long and
commonly used for vintage automotive and electronic applications. The
types MDL, ABC, GBB, and MDA are workable replacements up to 30 amps and
some are even UL listed above 20 amps. Many are not. In earlier years
and in other makers these 1/4 x 1-1/4" fuses were sometimes called 3AG,
or 3AB.
In this catalog the AGU fuses go only to 30 amps, and similar rated
fuses (generally higher voltage which isn't a big problem) include BAF,
BAN, KTK, KLM, FNM, and FNW. Older designations included 5AG or 5AB. The
KTK and KLM fuses will be astronomically priced. An older catalog also
shows a MDR being 13/32" x 1-1/2" and going to 40 amps.
In one old catalog it says for 9/32" diameter fuses, "These fuses in
sizes larger than 30 ampere are not recommended as clip or fuse holders
will not permit the fuse to carry such high currents."
I've checked my electrical and electronic catalogs back to the early
1960s. No one admits to making the AGP fuse. I find AGS in 9/32"
diameter, also 5AG.
Small diameter fuses rated at more than 20 amps are poor designs. The
contact area of the fuse clip is marginal at the higher currents and so
will warm up or heat and since the fuse works on heat, poor contacts can
speed up the fuse's blowing.
What are the dimensions and markings on the AGP fuses you have blown?
Gerald J., WBCCI #5623, VAC.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:48:30 -0600
From: root <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
No way will the gas fire in a fluorescent lamp at 12 volts. It takes
some sort of inverter to get higher voltage. It takes about 60 to 70
volts drop for the gas. That's running voltage, it takes maybe twice
that for starting. The filaments take only 4 or 5 volts when hooked in
series (common connection for trigger start lamps) and will glow for a
long time. These days a rope light made for 12 volt operation would be a
far better bargain. And wouldn't contain irritating phosphors and
mercury to make a mess when the lamp got broken in travel. Low voltage
ballasts have been around for ages, I remember them in use in buses in
St. Louis in the early 60s.
When choosing fluorescent fixtures, look for those that use modern lamps
like compact fluorescent lamps rather than those that have been around
for ages using T5 lamps. The color quality of the modern lamps is
considerably better than the straight or circular lamps from decades
ago. The fixtures using the modern lamps do unfortunately tend to be far
more costly than the old designs.
Gerald J., WBCCI #5623, VAC
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:14:15 -0700
From: "Forrest McClure" <forrest@xxxxxxxxxx.org>
Subject: RE: [VAL] 40 Amp Fuse
Gerald,
You are so...........RIGHT! And I apologize to the entire list for saying
that there is an AGP glass tube fuse. I referenced my notes to see what type
of fuse I'd purchased, and I'd written AGP, but with Gerald's posting I
thought I'd better double check by actually looking at some of the original
fuses. They are all "Buss AGS 40 amp". How I made a typo between 'P' and 'S'
I don't know, seeing as how the letters are at opposite sides of the
keyboard. Anyway, I can assure the list, without doubt, that the
nomenclature for the OEM fuse for '66 Airstreams is AGS and it is, as
Gerald's old catalog states, a 9/32" diameter glass tube Buss fuse.
Other than the typo I stand by my earlier postings as being correct. I also
agree with Gerald that the 9/32" fuses are marginal at 40 amps, as I have
occasionally noticed a warm fuse box. It is important to keep the fuse clips
clean and bright to maximize the contact area.
Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:17:03 -0500
From: John Sellers <jsellers@spectra-research.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
Tom (Meeker),
I'm not surprised that this trick works with some modern fluorescent fixtures
with electronic ballasts, but I would also not be surprised if it _doesn't_ work
with many of them, either.
Before you buy a bunch of 120 Volt AC fluorescent fixtures to use with 12 Volt
DC, you probably ought to buy *one* and see if it works as you expect. If it
works, let it run continuously for a few days and see if it keeps working. If
you're happy with the results then you can go buy more of them.
As I see it, there will be one of three outcomes to this experiment. It may not
work, it may work fine, or it may work for a while before some overloaded
component in the electronic ballast gives up in a puff of smoke. (Hopefully any
flames will be contained within the fixture.)
Best regards,
John Sellers
WBCCI/VAC #1587
1960 Pacer
Dayton, Ohio
PS This is coming to you from a temporary email address. My ISP quit accepting
email from Tom Patterson's ISP (and as of last week still wasn't accepting it)so
I am temporarily receiving the digest at my work email address.
Hats off to Tom Patterson--maintaining a list like this is an enormous effort,
even without disputes among the users. . .
> It stands to reason that a 120-volt fluorescent bulb will light off the gas
> with a 12-volt power supply. After all, you are not trying to light up a
> filament for light like a regular light bulb, all you are doing is warming
> up tiny filaments which light off the fluorescent gas inside the tube.
>
> Before you go spending a FORTUNE on 12-volt fluorescent light fixtures give
> this idea a try. I plan to add a couple of these lights to my 34-ft
> Classic.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:28:52 -0600
From: root <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: RE: [VAL] 40 Amp Fuse
There are other possible replacements for the AGS, 5AG for one and some
with ceramic tubes and higher voltages. I'll comment in detail later,
need to get some work done.
Gerald J. WBCCI #5623, VAC
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:41:02 -0600
From: "Oliver Homestead B&B" <oliverhome@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Memphis TN
Hi all,
We plan to visit Memphis, Tn. mid April. Does anyone have any
recommendations for campgrounds, sight seeing, eating places, etc.. Thanks
for any information.
Paul and Pam
WBCCI 5727
Missouri
1966 Tradewind
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:09:36 EST
From: HHamp5246@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] Memphis TN
In a message dated 3/22/2005 2:41:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
oliverhome@xxxxxxxxxx.net writes:
> We plan to visit Memphis, Tn. mid April. Does anyone have any
> recommendations for campgrounds, sight seeing, eating places, etc.. Thanks
> for any information.
>
Hi Paul,
The campground you want to stay in is Tom Sawyer's Mississippi River Park in
West Memphis Arkansas. 870-735- 9770.
For things to see, do not miss Graceland! It is exactly the way it was the
night Elvis died there. You can see the house and grounds, also the planes and
museums..... it's all ala carte...
I saw it all.....
Really, stay at Tom Sawyer.....
Hunter
http://members.aol.com/ILuvBrady/summer2004.htm
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy
shit...what a ride!"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:14:31 -0600
From: "Jarrod White" <jarrodwhite@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Memphis TN
My cousin stayed at the campground directly across the street from Graceland
and thought it was pretty nice. I don't remember the name, but it has Elvis
or Graceland in it. However, that area of town doesn't have much to offer
beyond Graceland.
As for sightseeing - drive downtown and park near the Peabody hotel. If
you arrive in the afternoon you might catch the ducks being paraded through.
You should walk Beele Street at night just to look around. There are plenty
of clubs with jazz, including BB King's, if you are interested. The original
Sun Records studio is open for tours during the day. If you like beer, there
is a bar between the Peabody and Beele St. called the Flying Saucer that has
over 100 beers on tap.
You must eat ribs while in Memphis. The best and most famous are at
Rendezvous. It is located off an alley that runs beside the Holiday Inn,
directly across the street from the Peabody. Corky's are also good (several
locations around town). Memphis ribs are traditionally served with a dry rub
and no sauce.
You'll have a fun time.
Jarrod
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Oliver Homestead B&B" <oliverhome@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:41 PM
Subject: [VAL] Memphis TN
> Hi all,
>
> We plan to visit Memphis, Tn. mid April. Does anyone have any
> recommendations for campgrounds, sight seeing, eating places, etc..
Thanks
> for any information.
>
>
>
> Paul and Pam
> WBCCI 5727
> Missouri
> 1966 Tradewind
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:25:05 EST
From: HHamp5246@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] Memphis TN
In a message dated 3/22/2005 3:15:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jarrodwhite@xxxxxxxxxx.net writes:
> My cousin stayed at the campground directly across the street from
> Graceland
> and thought it was pretty nice. I don't remember the name, but it has Elvis
> or Graceland in it. However, that area of town doesn't have much to offer
> beyond Graceland.>
Hi Jarrod,
I've stayed there... it's a very overpriced KOA. Crowded, small spaces, no
charm, bad neighborhood.....
> Your other suggestions are right on.... (c:
Hunter
http://members.aol.com/ILuvBrady/summer2004.htm
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy
shit...what a ride!"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:23:03 -0800
From: Glyn Judson <glynjudson@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Accessory step storage bracket.
All,
I know I covered this a few weeks ago but thought I'd post it again in
the hope that a somewhat different audience might read it.
I recently got the accessory Airstream step for my '69 Caravel and it
fits/works like a charm. I seem to remember seeing somewhere (the somewhere
is what I can't remember) an image of the storage bracket for these steps.
It seemed to be a simple affair that attached to the underside of the
trailer just forward of the main door. The folded 3/4" boxed square tube
pins slide into two square receiving holes and then the entire step swings
up to be secured with a bolt or something like that.
Does this ring a bell with anyone?
Is one fitted to your trailer and are you wondering what it is?
Can anyone photograph and measure theirs for me with an eye toward
having one made at the local sheet metal shop?
If you have one and don't have the step, are you interested in selling
the bracket?
Thanks,
Glyn Judson
1969 Caravel #508
Santa Monica CA
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:43:37 -0500
From: Dave Lowrey <airstream@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Testing 1 2 3 - Please Ignore
Please ignore - just testing to see if I have Thunderbird set up correctly
- --
- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Dave & Ann Lowrey - WBCCI: 5074
dave_lowrey@xxxxxxxxxx.com
1977 31' Sovereign International - Mid Bath
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:46:15 +0000
From: safari_tim@xxxxxxxxxx.net (Tim S)
Subject: Re: [VAL] Accessory step storage bracket.
Here is a photo.
It's basically a U bracket bolted upside down on the trailer. The rear end of the
U has square holes for the step brackets to slide into. The other part has a bolt
that stick out and a hole in the step allows it to slide on the bolt and is secured
with a wing nut.
http://www.airstreamforums.com/photos/showimage.php?i=6367&c=500&userid=2503
- --
- -Tim
www.ldservice.com/tim/tim
- -------------- Original message --------------
> It seemed to be a simple affair that attached to the underside of the
> trailer just forward of the main door. The folded 3/4" boxed square tube
> pins slide into two square receiving holes and then the entire step swings
> up to be secured with a bolt or something like that.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:56:29 -0800
From: Glyn Judson <glynjudson@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Accessory step storage bracket.
Tim,
Thanks for the link. Armed with this I think I can have one made. Do
you happen to have one or know the dimensions, i.e., how wide at the back
vs. the front, etc.?
Thanks,
Glyn
> From: safari_tim@xxxxxxxxxx.net (Tim S)
> Reply-To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:46:15 +0000
> To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> Subject: Re: [VAL] Accessory step storage bracket.
>
> Here is a photo.
>
> It's basically a U bracket bolted upside down on the trailer. The rear end of
> the U has square holes for the step brackets to slide into. The other part
> has a bolt that stick out and a hole in the step allows it to slide on the
> bolt and is secured with a wing nut.
>
> http://www.airstreamforums.com/photos/showimage.php?i=6367&c=500&userid=2503
>
>
>
> --
> -Tim
> www.ldservice.com/tim/tim
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
>> It seemed to be a simple affair that attached to the underside of the
>> trailer just forward of the main door. The folded 3/4" boxed square tube
>> pins slide into two square receiving holes and then the entire step swings
>> up to be secured with a bolt or something like that.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 23:12:08 +0000
From: safari_tim@xxxxxxxxxx.net (Tim S)
Subject: Re: [VAL] Accessory step storage bracket.
I don't have any measurements handy. I can get them if you need me too.
It should be the depth of the optional step. When folded the square arms slide into
the back channel. The front lip of the step slides over a bolt that secures it in place.
- --
- -Tim
www.ldservice.com/tim/tim
- -------------- Original message --------------
> Tim,
>
> Thanks for the link. Armed with this I think I can have one made. Do
> you happen to have one or know the dimensions, i.e., how wide at the back
> vs. the front, etc.?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Glyn
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:16:38 -0500
From: "Tom" <thomm@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
So then what are you saying about me and what I saw and talked to the
Airstream owner about? You think I am LYING?
Tom Meeker
WBCCI 5303
PS -- never say never
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "root" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
> No way will the gas fire in a fluorescent lamp at 12 volts. It takes
> some sort of inverter to get higher voltage. It takes about 60 to 70
> volts drop for the gas. That's running voltage, it takes maybe twice
> that for starting. The filaments take only 4 or 5 volts when hooked in
> series (common connection for trigger start lamps) and will glow for a
> long time. These days a rope light made for 12 volt operation would be a
> far better bargain. And wouldn't contain irritating phosphors and
> mercury to make a mess when the lamp got broken in travel. Low voltage
> ballasts have been around for ages, I remember them in use in buses in
> St. Louis in the early 60s.
>
> When choosing fluorescent fixtures, look for those that use modern lamps
> like compact fluorescent lamps rather than those that have been around
> for ages using T5 lamps. The color quality of the modern lamps is
> considerably better than the straight or circular lamps from decades
> ago. The fixtures using the modern lamps do unfortunately tend to be far
> more costly than the old designs.
>
> Gerald J., WBCCI #5623, VAC
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:29:13 -0500
From: "Tom" <thomm@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Dan C's LP system?
Sorry to hear that. Is it the odor in the LP gas that bothers her?
What about using white gas Coleman fuel? Or, are you an all-electric home?
Tom
> Tom,
>
> My wife has a medical problem that will not allow any lp. No heat,
> refeer, water heater lp can be used.
> Dan
>>Dan,
>>
>>What happened to the LP system?
>>
>>Tom Meeker
>>
>>
>>From: "Daniel Childress" <daniel@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
>>
>>>Rob
>>> We are using the batteries for everything. No lp. Batteries will
>>>power refer, lights, entire
>>>Caravel.
>>> We are also looking at a Tundra as a tow vehicle. Presently
>>>using a Sienna.
>>>Dan
>>>
>>>>We also have a 69 Caravel and I have no idea where I
>>>>would locate a 48 in. box. Our battery power is one
>>>>12 volt deep cycle which has gone 5 days for us, of
>>>>course that is careful use.
>>>>
>>>>Are you using 6 volt motorcycle batteries?
>>>>
>>>>Rob and Carole
>>>>San Diego
>>>>69 Caravel
>>>>02 Tundra (has not towed yet)
>>
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>>
>>To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
>>http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 19:02:13 -0600
From: "Tom Patterson" <pattersontom@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
I didn't see anyone calling you a liar. I think you need to back off this
wording !
I did see Gerald saying that 12 Volts would not start the flourescent lamp,
and that some kind of inverter is required. Probably that is what was
working with the lights you saw.
Gerald could probably have better expressed his opinion as well. The "No
way" in the message would tend to raise any hackles. Probably Gerald can
explain how the 120 volt fixtures did work with the 12 volt system. Some
kind of ballast must exist I would think.
- -Tom (an accountant, not an electrician)
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom" <thomm@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
> So then what are you saying about me and what I saw and talked to the
> Airstream owner about? You think I am LYING?
>
> Tom Meeker
> WBCCI 5303
>
> PS -- never say never
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "root" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
> To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
>
>
>> No way will the gas fire in a fluorescent lamp at 12 volts. It takes
>> some sort of inverter to get higher voltage. It takes about 60 to 70
>> volts drop for the gas. That's running voltage, it takes maybe twice
>> that for starting. The filaments take only 4 or 5 volts when hooked in
>> series (common connection for trigger start lamps) and will glow for a
>> long time. These days a rope light made for 12 volt operation would be a
>> far better bargain. And wouldn't contain irritating phosphors and
>> mercury to make a mess when the lamp got broken in travel. Low voltage
>> ballasts have been around for ages, I remember them in use in buses in
>> St. Louis in the early 60s.
>>
>> When choosing fluorescent fixtures, look for those that use modern lamps
>> like compact fluorescent lamps rather than those that have been around
>> for ages using T5 lamps. The color quality of the modern lamps is
>> considerably better than the straight or circular lamps from decades
>> ago. The fixtures using the modern lamps do unfortunately tend to be far
>> more costly than the old designs.
>>
>> Gerald J., WBCCI #5623, VAC
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:31:43 EST
From: Dillonvdill@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
I loved the 22watt Circuline original light on the galley ceiling in the 1956
Overlander
that I had, and found that I could put a 12v ballast in it to operated it.
When camping
I put 12v screw in light bulbs in the wall fixtures and pluged the shoreline
into a 12v source ( a large battery on the hitch) and had all the light I
needed without having to wire the trailer for 12v wiring.
Thats what they did on the Mexican caravan my grandparents were on with Wally
Byam in the fifties.
Vanessa
1958 overlander 26'
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:51:08 -0600
From: Daniel Childress <daniel@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Dan C's LP system?
Any petrochemical. We are going all electric in the airstream.
Looking to build an all electric home with net zero use of the
power company.
Dan
>Sorry to hear that. Is it the odor in the LP gas that bothers her?
>
>What about using white gas Coleman fuel? Or, are you an all-electric home?
>
>Tom
>
>
>>Tom,
>>
>>My wife has a medical problem that will not allow any lp. No heat,
>>refeer, water heater lp can be used.
>>Dan
>>>Dan,
>>>
>>>What happened to the LP system?
>>>
>>>Tom Meeker
>>>
>>>
>>>From: "Daniel Childress" <daniel@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
>>>
>>>>Rob
>>>> We are using the batteries for everything. No lp. Batteries
>>>>will power refer, lights, entire
>>>>Caravel.
>>>> We are also looking at a Tundra as a tow vehicle. Presently
>>>>using a Sienna.
>>>>Dan
>>>>
>>>>>We also have a 69 Caravel and I have no idea where I
>>>>>would locate a 48 in. box. Our battery power is one
>>>>>12 volt deep cycle which has gone 5 days for us, of
>>>>>course that is careful use.
>>>>>
>>>>>Are you using 6 volt motorcycle batteries?
>>>>>
>>>>>Rob and Carole
>>>>>San Diego
>>>>>69 Caravel
>>>>>02 Tundra (has not towed yet)
>>>
>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
>>>http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
>>
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 21:54:11 -0600
From: root <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
There NO gas discharge devices that will sustain an arc or discharge
below about 60 volts. And I know from my own experiments in running
fluorescent tubes from DC several decades ago that reliable starting was
much better with a 200 volt supply and series current limiting
resistance (ballast if you will) and some inductance for applying a
larger inductive kick voltage for starting.
You said there was a glow? Was that from the end of the tubes only and a
bit orange or was the glow the length of the tube? There have been long
straight incandescent lamps with diameter about the same as fluorescent
tubes. I don't know of any rated for 12 volts, though that is a
possibility. Generally the end terminals on the long double ended
incandescent lamps are dimpled at the middle, otherwise relatively flat
disks. Glow only from the ends tending to be orangish would be using the
filaments of the fluorescent lamp only. Not energy efficient, nor a
great idea for the environment when the lamp breaks from the excess heat
at the ends and spills phosphors, glass fragments, and a bit of mercury.
A couple automotive dome lamps would be safer and more energy efficient.
Today a couple light emitting diodes would be even better.
The simplest fluorescent lamp circuit (one lamp) takes the lamp, an
inductor (two wire ballast) and a starter. Either a plug-in starter or a
manual start switch, as on many desk lamps of the 50s and later. Power
is wired to one filament though the inductor, the other terminal of that
filament is connected to the filament on the other end of the tube
through the start switch or the starter, then the other side of the
second filament returns to the other side of the power source. To start
you close the switch until the filaments heat, then you (or the starter)
opens the circuit and the inductive kick from the inductor triggers the
gas discharge. The current is limited by the inductor while starting and
while running. The gas discharge does not limit current, if fed from a
stiff voltage source it will draw as much current as the source will
supply and will self destruct in the process.
If that simple circuit is connected directly to 12 volts, the filaments
will glow while the start switch is closed, and there probably will be a
flash as the energy stored in the inductor creates a voltage great
enough to make the fluorescent lamp discharge begin, but as the voltage
falls back towards 12 volts the discharge will quit. Every time.
The earliest solid state ballasts I ever noticed were in city buses in
St. Louis in the early 1960's. They ran by inverting the DC to an ac
voltage at an audible frequency (an unpleasant squeal). Fluorescent
lamps give better efficiency at higher frequencies than 60 Hz power and
tend to blacken one end of the tube when run on DC. knew about
There are other fluorescent lamps and lamp circuits besides the trigger
start. Rapid start and instant start depend on the ballast creating a
high enough voltage (several hundred volts at times) to start the
discharge without heating the filament as hot in the rapid start and
with no filament at all in the instant start lamps.
The two lamp rapid start lamps actually run the lamps in series but
start them one at a time without any starter switch. I've been into knew
about those down to the copper and laminations level while serving as an
expert witness in a fire case caused by the failure of such a ballast. I
was privy to the ballast maker's most private internal design and
production documents during that case. And by abusing a ballast, I was
able to reproduce the source of the fire. There had to be failure of the
external lead insulation at the same time there was an internal failure
that caused the ballast to heat and exude asphalt and asphalt fumes. The
odds of the two happening together were very small but not zero. At that
time, the reports were about 10 per year with about 10 million new
ballasts made each year by that manufacturer and for that particular
type of lamps.
knew about
Today a rope light made to run off a transformer is probably 12 volts
and would work well in the trailer running off 12 volts for mood
lighting.
The modern electronic high power factor ballast made for running on 120
volts AC may run on 12 volts as mentioned here already. What it has is
an input stage that takes the variable voltage of the alternating
current power source after rectification steps that voltage up to an
intermediate DC voltage varying the step up ratio through out the AC
cycle to draw current proportional to the applied voltage. That makes
knew about it look nearly like a resistive load. The earlier electronic
ballasts and indeed the magnetic ballasts all drew a short pulse of
current at the voltage peak which caused a lot of harmonic current in
the AC power system leading to wiring and transformer overheating. I've
not seen any high power factor ballast circuit applications notes saying
it would run on DC since to give enough power to the lamp, the input
current at 12 volts would have to be ten times the input current at 120
volts and during the AC cycle, the current at 12 volts would have to be
one tenth the current at 120 volts to make it have a high power factor,
or the current exactly instantaneously proportional to the voltage. So
as noted here this afternoon, its likely that the high power factor
electronic ballast would burn up the input section after running on 12
volts DC for a while. If it didn't that sure would be an interesting
application because the other 12 volt ballasts that are good are a whole
heap more expensive.
knew about
To run the fluorescent lamp from a 12 volt supply, the voltage has to be
stepped up with an inverter to at least 80 volts and there has to be a
pulse of higher voltage for starting. Then there has to be some circuit
provision to limit the current through the lamp because the lamp won't
limit the current. That's the nature of the fluorescent lamp.
But the fluorescent lamp won't have a discharge with only 12 volts
applied to the lamp.
Gerald J.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 20:27:20 -0800 (PST)
From: John Leggett <pklhead2@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Thanks Tom
Tom-
I echo Polly's sentiment.
Thanks for keeping the list running despite the hassles.
I know we all appreciate the effort and value the insights gained from the group.
Best Regards,
John Leggett
San Francisco
WBCCI #1154
1968 Safari 22T
- ---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:39:42 -0500
From: "eemerick" <eemerick@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: [VAL] Memphis TN
Oliver,
We lived there for 6 years, let me list the stuff you have to do:
Graceland
Public Eye. BBQ, midtown,
Toms BBQ all over town
There was camping on Elvis Presley Blvd at a hotel, can't remember the
name
The Zoo in midtown
Mud Island
Fishing in MS spillways
Plate lunches at a number of places in town, I liked fried Okra! The
smaller the place the better.
We used to walk from our Midtown home to Dinos, for breakfast, I don't
know if it is still there but if it is go check it out.
Memphis in May
Trout fishing in AR
Beer at the frats at Rhodes, I traded not complaining about the noise
for beer!
I never saw so many flowers in the spring as I have in Memphis
Now don't get me wrong but it can be a place that you have to watch your
back, just be careful. A pretty town in the spring, miserable in the
summer the fall is OK and in the winter you can still play golf and fish
in MS and AR.
I was a Northerner in the South and still like some of the things in
town.
Ed
WBCCI/VAC 4425
- -----Original Message-----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com
[mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com] On Behalf Of Oliver Homestead B&B
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:41 PM
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Memphis TN
Hi all,
We plan to visit Memphis, Tn. mid April. Does anyone have any
recommendations for campgrounds, sight seeing, eating places, etc..
Thanks for any information.
Paul and Pam
WBCCI 5727
Missouri
1966 Tradewind
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:12:07 -0500
From: "Tom" <thomm@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Dan C's LP system?
Okay, then.
As far as an all electric Airstream -- what kind of and where will you be
mounting a generator for those times you can't plug in?
Tom
> Any petrochemical. We are going all electric in the airstream. Looking to
> build an all electric home with net zero use of the power company.
> Dan
>
>>Sorry to hear that. Is it the odor in the LP gas that bothers her?
>>
>>What about using white gas Coleman fuel? Or, are you an all-electric
>>home?
>>
>>Tom
>>
>>
>>>Tom,
>>>
>>>My wife has a medical problem that will not allow any lp. No heat,
>>>refeer, water heater lp can be used.
>>>Dan
>>>>Dan,
>>>>
>>>>What happened to the LP system?
>>>>
>>>>Tom Meeker
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From: "Daniel Childress" <daniel@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
>>>>
>>>>>Rob
>>>>> We are using the batteries for everything. No lp. Batteries will
>>>>> power refer, lights, entire
>>>>>Caravel.
>>>>> We are also looking at a Tundra as a tow vehicle. Presently using a
>>>>> Sienna.
>>>>>Dan
>>>>>
>>>>>>We also have a 69 Caravel and I have no idea where I
>>>>>>would locate a 48 in. box. Our battery power is one
>>>>>>12 volt deep cycle which has gone 5 days for us, of
>>>>>>course that is careful use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Are you using 6 volt motorcycle batteries?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Rob and Carole
>>>>>>San Diego
>>>>>>69 Caravel
>>>>>>02 Tundra (has not towed yet)
>>>>
>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>>>>
>>>>To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
>>>>http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
>>>
>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
>>>http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
>>
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
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>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:27:56 -0500
From: "Tom" <thomm@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
Okay, I shouldn't have suggested what I thought was being implied with the,
"No way" statement; Gerald is an engineer, I'm not and his words go much
farther due to his title/s than mine ever could. Mea Culpa.
But, I know what I saw. I will get the *facts* as to how these 20-inch
flourescent lamps which normally would be working "correctly as designed" in
their 12-volt environment I witnessed.
Fair enough?
Tom Meeker
From: "Tom Patterson" <pattersontom@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
>I didn't see anyone calling you a liar. I think you need to back off this
>wording !
>
> I did see Gerald saying that 12 Volts would not start the flourescent
> lamp, and that some kind of inverter is required. Probably that is what
> was working with the lights you saw.
>
> Gerald could probably have better expressed his opinion as well. The "No
> way" in the message would tend to raise any hackles. Probably Gerald can
> explain how the 120 volt fixtures did work with the 12 volt system. Some
> kind of ballast must exist I would think.
>
> -Tom (an accountant, not an electrician)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom" <thomm@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
> To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 5:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
>
>
>> So then what are you saying about me and what I saw and talked to the
>> Airstream owner about? You think I am LYING?
>>
>> Tom Meeker
>> WBCCI 5303
>>
>> PS -- never say never
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "root" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
>> To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:48 AM
>> Subject: Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Flourescent Fixtures?
>>
>>
>>> No way will the gas fire in a fluorescent lamp at 12 volts. It takes
>>> some sort of inverter to get higher voltage. It takes about 60 to 70
>>> volts drop for the gas. That's running voltage, it takes maybe twice
>>> that for starting. The filaments take only 4 or 5 volts when hooked in
>>> series (common connection for trigger start lamps) and will glow for a
>>> long time. These days a rope light made for 12 volt operation would be a
>>> far better bargain. And wouldn't contain irritating phosphors and
>>> mercury to make a mess when the lamp got broken in travel. Low voltage
>>> ballasts have been around for ages, I remember them in use in buses in
>>> St. Louis in the early 60s.
>>>
>>> When choosing fluorescent fixtures, look for those that use modern lamps
>>> like compact fluorescent lamps rather than those that have been around
>>> for ages using T5 lamps. The color quality of the modern lamps is
>>> considerably better than the straight or circular lamps from decades
>>> ago. The fixtures using the modern lamps do unfortunately tend to be far
>>> more costly than the old designs.
>>>
>>> Gerald J., WBCCI #5623, VAC
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
>>> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
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>>
>>
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------------------------------
End of VAL Digest V2 #195
*************************
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