The Vintage Airstream E-mail ListDigest Archive Files
VAL Digest V2 #130
VAL Digest Monday, January 17 2005 Volume 02 : Number 130
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Topics in Today's Digest:
Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
RE: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
RE: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
Re: [VAL] Airstream video and book
Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
[VAL] Humphrey gas light on eBay
Re: [VAL] Humphrey gas light on eBay
Re: [VAL] Humphrey gas light on eBay
Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
Re: [VAL] Humphrey gas light on eBay
Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
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Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 11:05:19 -0800
From: Joann Wheatley <jwheatle@xxxxxxxxxx.edu>
Subject: Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
OK - you guys have finally scared me with all the brake stories and
tech stuff. Are you talking about Big Trailers or does my little 3200
lbs Bubble need some of this stuff too? I have electric brakes that
came with the replacement Dexter axle and a Prodigy controller + I'm
towing with a truck that's over half again as heavy as the trailer. I
know there's also a little black box that's wired to my batteries that
connects to the truck - the breakaway system as well.
Jo ann
On Jan 2005, at 7:23 PM, C. Hyde wrote:
>> Greetings,
>> Has anyone tried or thought of putting the old fashioned U-haul type
>> surge
>> brake hitch ....
> V.Dillon,
> Several years ago I rebuilt an old car trailer that had hydraulic
> brakes
> with a surge tongue. The hydraulic cylinder....
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:34:47 -0600
From: "dtidmore" <dtidmore@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: RE: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
Jo ann,
Don't get too paranoid over the negative talk about electric trailer brakes.
The biggest performance issue with electric drum brakes is the fact that
they have different fade characteristics than disc brakes (ie they start to
fade much faster than the disc brakes on tow vehicle). Normally this is
negligible, but during hard or panic stops the fade difference can move the
equation from one of a hard stop to a white knuckle experience depending on
the speed from which the stop is made. Hydraulic disc brakes are just
superior to ANY drum brake and that is why all vehicles have them today. We
have a 4500# (gross weight), 2002 Bambi and with my Jordan controller
properly adjusted, I can tell when the brake fade causes the trailer to
change from leading to lagging in deceleration force. I investigated
switching our Bambi to disc hydraulic brakes over a year ago and have yet to
make the change, but in time I will do so only to provide the largest margin
of safety possible. But remember, electric drum brakes have been in use for
over 40 years and have a solid safety record, but that does not mean that
there is not something better.
David
- -----Original Message-----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com [mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com]
On Behalf Of Joann Wheatley
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 1:05 PM
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
OK - you guys have finally scared me with all the brake stories and
tech stuff. Are you talking about Big Trailers or does my little 3200
lbs Bubble need some of this stuff too? I have electric brakes that
came with the replacement Dexter axle and a Prodigy controller + I'm
towing with a truck that's over half again as heavy as the trailer. I
know there's also a little black box that's wired to my batteries that
connects to the truck - the breakaway system as well.
Jo ann
On Jan 2005, at 7:23 PM, C. Hyde wrote:
>> Greetings,
>> Has anyone tried or thought of putting the old fashioned U-haul type
>> surge
>> brake hitch ....
> V.Dillon,
> Several years ago I rebuilt an old car trailer that had hydraulic
> brakes
> with a surge tongue. The hydraulic cylinder....
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:34:56 -0600
From: "Kevin D. Allen" <overlander64@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: RE: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
Greetings Jo ann!
On Jan 2005, at 7:23 PM, C. Hyde wrote:
- -----Original Message-----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com [mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com]
On Behalf Of Joann Wheatley
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 1:05 PM
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
OK - you guys have finally scared me with all the brake stories and
tech stuff. Are you talking about Big Trailers or does my little 3200
lbs Bubble need some of this stuff too? I have electric brakes that
came with the replacement Dexter axle and a Prodigy controller + I'm
towing with a truck that's over half again as heavy as the trailer. I
know there's also a little black box that's wired to my batteries that
connects to the truck - the breakaway system as well.
Jo ann
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
You are in a similar situation to what I am running with my '78 Argosy
Minuet 6.0 Metre - - it has a GVWR or 3,250 pounds, but typically scales out
at 3,100 pounds when I am ready to travel. I feel very confident in its
drum style electric brakes since it is outweighed by any of my current tow
vehicles. Since I want to tow my Overlander periodically with my Vintage
Cadillac (that only weighs about 600 pounds less than the Airstream), I want
the very best braking system (high capacity with reduced fade) for the
Overlander to allow for towing in that situation. Also, since the
Overlander will need new axles before I take my next major trip with that
coach, it makes the disc brake upgrade more desirable since much of the
disassembly must be done as part of that procedure.
Kevin
Kevin D. Allen
1964 Overlander International
1999 GMC K2500 Suburban (7400 VORTEC/4.10 Differentials)
1978 Argosy Minuet
1975 Cadillac Convertible
(8.2 Liter V8/2.70 Final Drive)
WBCCI/VAC #6359
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:31:16 EST
From: JSmith1805@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
JO ANN you are safe as far as you and youir tow vwchile and trailer set up is
conserned. Now all you neeed to worry about is Dirty old men hitting on you.
JIM SMITH
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 14:30:52 -0700
From: Royce <rkkessler@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Airstream video and book
There is one available right now through abebooks.com at:
http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?imagefield.x=60&an=robert+landau&tn=airstream&imagefield.y=9
Atb,
Royce
On Tuesday 04 January 2005 10:58 pm, William Kerfoot wrote:
> Brad,
>
> I think that you are correct, the book is available at several used book
> sites for $145. It was available at Jackson Center a few years ago. It
> was published by Peregrine Smith Books of Salt Lake City, now, I think,
> Gibbs Smith, publisher also of Salt Lake City.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:46:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Uwe Salwender <salwender@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
- --- Joann Wheatley <jwheatle@xxxxxxxxxx.edu> wrote:
> OK - you guys have finally scared me with all the
> brake stories and
> tech stuff. Are you talking about Big Trailers or
> does my little 3200
> lbs Bubble need some of this stuff too? I have
> electric brakes that
> came with the replacement Dexter axle and a Prodigy
> controller + I'm
> towing with a truck that's over half again as heavy
> as the trailer. I
> know there's also a little black box that's wired to
> my batteries that
> connects to the truck - the breakaway system as
> well.
> Jo ann
Dear Joann,
2 main concerns for wanting to install new axles with
disc brakes for my situation are:
1, Smoother stopping, less brake fade. My trailer will
be in the 6000lb range, and towed with a 1/2 ton
Suburban. I want better brakes than my 71 tradewind
with new axles and electric drum brakes has.
2, balance issues. Electric trailer brake drums are
very heavy and inherently out of balance by a fair
amount. Trailer parts are typically not very refined
or well engineered. Electric brake drums are a prime
example of this. 4 brake drums that are out of balance
by 1/3 of a pound will eventually cause structural
problems. I have observed black rings under cans in my
cupboard, for example, a sign of vibration and
movement in the can. This disappeared after I had my
brake drums and wheels balanced as a unit. I had loose
interior panels and other signes of excessive
vibration as well. The sock in my gas lamp now
actually lasts through 1/2 a season instead of 1/2
mile.
Disc brakes have much better balance, as they are
lighter and don't have all their weight in the outer
circumference, but inside near the hub. The spinning
mass is less prone to cause imbalance, and the overall
construction/machining is much cleaner, therefore
being naturally at an advantage.
I will ost a full report once my trailer has a few
miles on it with teh new axles and disc brakes. Right
now i am hoping that this will remedy the shortcomings
of trailer drum brakes with electric actuation.
I do not think the stopping power is much of an issue
in a 3000lb trailer towed with a decent truckm but the
balancing issues are just the same.
Cheers,
Uwe Salwender
Orange CA
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 17:04:51 -0500
From: Rick Kunath <k9ao@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
On Sunday 16 January 2005 02:34 pm, dtidmore wrote:
The biggest performance issue with electric drum brakes is the fact
> that they have different fade characteristics than disc brakes (ie they
> start to fade much faster than the disc brakes on tow vehicle). Normally
> this is negligible, but during hard or panic stops the fade difference can
> move the equation from one of a hard stop to a white knuckle experience
> depending on the speed from which the stop is made.
Note that the BrakeSmart (Hensley) electric brake controller compensates for
this electric brake fade. If I recall correctly, it is the ony aftermarket
electric brake controller that does that.
There is a big difference between how a proportional controller like the
BrakeSmart and the Ford factory controller, and an accelerometer based
controller like the Prodigy controls braking.
A proportional controller sees changes in braking as changes occur to the
hydraulic brake system pressure on the tow vehicle, and responds accordingly.
It knows when you come on harder and ease off on the brake pedal, because the
hydraulic pressure changes. It does depend on proper brake controller
adjustment however, though this does not change much once set correctly.
An accelerometer based controller senses changes in the deceleration of the
tow vehicle and attempts to correlate this to appropriate trailer braking.
Since it is reactive, anything it does is after the fact. It can't see you
ease off on the brakes or come on a bit harder, it has to wait until the tow
vehicle/trailer combination has a change in the deceleration rate and make
some adjustment then.
As long as you have good traction, you're all set. On poor traction conditions
this can be a problem. Brakes don't apply and release in unison. There is
always some disparity in braking phasing between the tow vehicle and the
trailer, but proportional controllers are much better in this aspect.
Whatever type of brake controller you have, be sure to completely understand
how it works and it's limitations.
And know where the manual trailer brake application control is.
Rick Kunath
WBCCI #3060
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:07:10 -0700
From: Michael & Tracy Bertch <scrapirony@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Humphrey gas light on eBay
Hello,
There is a listing on eBay for a new old stock Humphrey gas light, in
the box. I seem to remember that someone was looking for one quite a
while ago...it might have been someone at the Rocky Mountain Rally in
Colo Springs...
The eBay item # is 4520486679. I don't know this seller...all I'm
doing is passing on the info...We're off to Quartzite this week, then
Padre Island/Mustang Island on the Texas coast...will be our first
extended trip in the '68 Overlander(6 wks)...hope to have Oasis do some
awning work and axle eval while in AZ...any
comments/suggestions/tips/warnings/info/prayers are welcome...mike&tracy
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:46:47 -0700
From: "Forrest McClure" <forrest@xxxxxxxxxx.org>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Humphrey gas light on eBay
Hey Mike & Tracy,
That is great that you're getting away in the middle of winter! Have fun!
Looked at the e-Bay item. It might be a bargain if the bidding doesn't go
too high. Otherwise, the same lamp can be had, new (exact look), at:
http://www.gas-lights.com/paulin.html
They have these lamps in a variety of different finishes, each about $58 +
shipping.
I will eventually install one. Can anyone tell me whether I should order the
type with a "tie on mantle?" Also, I noticed that there are high altitude
(+4,500 ft) nozzles. Are the nozzles easy to change? Or if I go with the
high altitude, will it also work fairly well at lower elevations?
Apparently, the low altitude nozzel will make the mantle black at high
altitude, but what happens when a high altitude nozzle is used at a low
altitude?
Forrest
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael & Tracy Bertch" <scrapirony@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: "VAL List Reply" <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 9:07 PM
Subject: [VAL] Humphrey gas light on eBay
> Hello,
> There is a listing on eBay for a new old stock Humphrey gas light, in
> the box. I seem to remember that someone was looking for one quite a
> while ago...it might have been someone at the Rocky Mountain Rally in
> Colo Springs...
> The eBay item # is 4520486679. I don't know this seller...all I'm
> doing is passing on the info...We're off to Quartzite this week, then
> Padre Island/Mustang Island on the Texas coast...will be our first
> extended trip in the '68 Overlander(6 wks)...hope to have Oasis do some
> awning work and axle eval while in AZ...any
> comments/suggestions/tips/warnings/info/prayers are welcome...mike&tracy
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:28:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Uwe Salwender <salwender@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Humphrey gas light on eBay
- --- Forrest McClure <forrest@xxxxxxxxxx.org> wrote:
> I will eventually install one. Can anyone tell me
> whether I should order the
> type with a "tie on mantle?" Also, I noticed that
> there are high altitude
> (+4,500 ft) nozzles. Are the nozzles easy to change?
> Or if I go with the
> high altitude, will it also work fairly well at
> lower elevations?
> Apparently, the low altitude nozzel will make the
> mantle black at high
> altitude, but what happens when a high altitude
> nozzle is used at a low
> altitude?
Forrest,
My 1971 Tradewind has the tie on mantle. Before I got
my wheelsa and brake drums balanced, the mantle would
disintegrate during every trip due to vibration, and I
would have to "tie one on" at the destination before I
could to use the lamp....and then tie on a new mantle.
Anyways, the tie on mantels are very inexpensive
compared to the ones with the solid base, which I
believe are screw on mantles.
I do like the gas lamp, it definitely makes a bright
white light, like a 60W or larger light bulb would. It
uses very little energy. Burning in the mantels makes
a nasty chemical fallout type smoke cloud. Can't be
good for you to inhale, my guess. I run the ceiling
fan when that becomes an issue.
The ceramic nozzle that holds the mantle unscrews
easily, revealing a gas jet right below. It's very
easy to change.
I ran mine at the Colorado VAC Rally last year, and it
seemed to work just as well as it did at sea level in
Mexico. So I'm not sure what's up with the jetting
thing. My lamp has a gas valve that adjusts the gas
flow, maybe that's why my jetting is more universal.
I'd say buy a new one, with the right kind of finish.
My 63 Overlander project will receive one soon. I like
the chrome finish the best.
Hope to see you at teh VAC Rally in 2005
Uwe
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:39:39 -0800
From: Joann Wheatley <jwheatle@xxxxxxxxxx.edu>
Subject: Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
Naaa.. that doesn't bother me, Jim but I must confess my trailer is
just about the cutest thing...I don't think I would have had the guts
to finish it and do a good job without this crew.
Jo Ann
On Jan 2005, at 1:31 PM, JSmith1805@xxxxxxxxxx.com wrote:
> JO ANN you are safe as far as you and youir tow vwchile and trailer
> set up is
> conserned. Now all you neeed to worry about is Dirty old men hitting
> on you.
> JIM SMITH
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:50:07 -0800
From: Joann Wheatley <jwheatle@xxxxxxxxxx.edu>
Subject: Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
> Dear Joann,
> 2 main concerns for wanting to install new axles with
> disc brakes for my situation are:
>
> 1, Smoother stopping, less brake fade.....
Uwe:
Thanks for the information. I hope it works for youl I didn't realize
the components were so non-uniform as to weight and I can see how that
would be a real vibration problem. I do think that until I have a few
thousand miles under my belt, this kind of stuff will be on my mind.
Jo Ann
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:52:51 -0700
From: "Forrest McClure" <forrest@xxxxxxxxxx.org>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Humphrey gas light on eBay
Thanks for the info Uwe. Pat and I will definitely be at the RMVAC rally.
See you there!
Forrest
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Uwe Salwender" <salwender@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [VAL] Humphrey gas light on eBay
> --- Forrest McClure <forrest@xxxxxxxxxx.org> wrote:
>
> > I will eventually install one. Can anyone tell me
> > whether I should order the
> > type with a "tie on mantle?" Also, I noticed that
> > there are high altitude
> > (+4,500 ft) nozzles. Are the nozzles easy to change?
> > Or if I go with the
> > high altitude, will it also work fairly well at
> > lower elevations?
> > Apparently, the low altitude nozzel will make the
> > mantle black at high
> > altitude, but what happens when a high altitude
> > nozzle is used at a low
> > altitude?
>
>
> Forrest,
>
> My 1971 Tradewind has the tie on mantle. Before I got
> my wheelsa and brake drums balanced, the mantle would
> disintegrate during every trip due to vibration, and I
> would have to "tie one on" at the destination before I
> could to use the lamp....and then tie on a new mantle.
> Anyways, the tie on mantels are very inexpensive
> compared to the ones with the solid base, which I
> believe are screw on mantles.
> I do like the gas lamp, it definitely makes a bright
> white light, like a 60W or larger light bulb would. It
> uses very little energy. Burning in the mantels makes
> a nasty chemical fallout type smoke cloud. Can't be
> good for you to inhale, my guess. I run the ceiling
> fan when that becomes an issue.
> The ceramic nozzle that holds the mantle unscrews
> easily, revealing a gas jet right below. It's very
> easy to change.
> I ran mine at the Colorado VAC Rally last year, and it
> seemed to work just as well as it did at sea level in
> Mexico. So I'm not sure what's up with the jetting
> thing. My lamp has a gas valve that adjusts the gas
> flow, maybe that's why my jetting is more universal.
> I'd say buy a new one, with the right kind of finish.
> My 63 Overlander project will receive one soon. I like
> the chrome finish the best.
> Hope to see you at teh VAC Rally in 2005
> Uwe
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:57:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Uwe Salwender <salwender@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
> Uwe:
> Thanks for the information. I hope it works for
> youl I didn't realize
> the components were so non-uniform as to weight and
> I can see how that
> would be a real vibration problem. I do think that
> until I have a few
> thousand miles under my belt, this kind of stuff
> will be on my mind.
> Jo Ann
Jo Ann,
My brake drums were so out of balance, the with the
tire removed and a properly adjusted bearing, they
would rotate to where the heavy spot stops on the
bottom. Same spot every time. that's what freaked me
out, knowing the consequences of imbalances from my
experience with vehicle suspensions.
However, I do not htink that the imbalance poses an
immediate safety hazard, my posts were not meant to
make you worry about safe travels.
Cheers,
Uwe
------------------------------
End of VAL Digest V2 #130
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