The Vintage Airstream E-mail ListDigest Archive Files
VAL Digest V2 #129
VAL Digest Sunday, January 16 2005 Volume 02 : Number 129
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Topics in Today's Digest:
[VAL] Re: Surge Brakes
Re: [VAL] Re: surge brakes
Re: [VAL] Re: surge brakes
Re: [VAL] Re: surge brakes
[VAL] Comparing Airstreams
Re: [VAL] Bike rack on rear AS bumper
[VAL] 58' Overlander Hydralic Brakes
[VAL] Re: 63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
Re: [VAL] copper?!
Re: [VAL] Surge Brakes
Re: [VAL] Comparing Airstreams
[VAL] making contact ....
Re: [VAL] making contact ....
[VAL] Re: VAL Airstream Video and book
Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
[VAL] Disc brakes
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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:07:11 -0800
From: "Marvin W. Murray" <mwm@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Re: Surge Brakes
Finally a subject I know something about.
For many years I owned a '33 boat which I trailered on a triple axle trailer
equipped with surge brakes. The total weight of the boat and trailer was
10,000+ pounds. My tow vehicle was a GMC 1 ton crewcab daully with a 454
engine.
The surge brakes worked reasonably well. Backing up is not a problem as the
brakes respond only to surges which compress a hydraulic cylinder in the
hitch (deceleration when you apply the tow vehicle brakes to stop when
traveling forward and, conversely, acceleration when you apply the gas to
back up.) If you don't gun the throttle while backing up (and who would want
to), the brakes don't activate. Indeed, it never happened to me.
It is my understanding that all large boat trailers have surge brakes
because electric brakes would likely malfunction after the boat is launched
or retrieved, during which the trailer wheels are completely submerged in
the water.
Marvin Murray
'76 Tradewind 25'
> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:31:32 -0600
> From: "Dr. Gerald Johnson" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
> Subject: [VAL] Re: surge brakes
>
> I'm not sure about the legality of surge brakes on modern trailers. There
> have been
> controllers that allow backing up and maybe even braking while backing.
> The
> simple surge master cylinders didn't do that. Made for rotten backing with
> the
> trailer brakes locked.
>
> Some modern (and large) farm wagons now come with surge brakes. They have
> added shock absorbers on the telescoping tongues to moderate braking when
> the tractor speed changes abruptly.
>
> I much prefer electric brakes though I can conceive of electric over
> hydraulic that
> would use the modern electric brake controller to control the hydraulic
> brakes on
> the trailer. The original hydraulic brakes planned on tapping the tow
> vehicle
> hydraulic brake system with the loss of safety posed by breaking that
> flexible hose
> between tow vehicle and trailer. In those days, the tow vehicle brakes
> were a
> simpler system so adding the trailer hydraulic brakes didn't upset any
> balance.
>
> Gerald J.
> - --
> Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
> Reproduction by permission only.
>
> ------------------------------
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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:27:06 -0600
From: "Tom Patterson" <pattersontom@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: surge brakes
An interesting system that I had installed on my '65 Streamline motorhome to
operate the hydraulic brakes on the '65 Mustang toad that I pull behind it
relies on air. The system is the M & G braking system marketed by M & G
Engineering of Athens, Texas.
The tow vehicle is equipped with a small air compressor and tank which
starts up when the ignition switch is activated. The two vehicles are
connected with an air hose. Braking of the two vehicles is similtaneous,
and works very well indeed.
I don't know why it wouldn't work with a trailer equipped with hydraulic
brakes. See details at :
http://www.m-gengineering.com/index.html.
- -Tom
>
> I much prefer electric brakes though I can conceive of electric over
> hydraulic that
> would use the modern electric brake controller to control the hydraulic
> brakes on
> the trailer. The original hydraulic brakes planned on tapping the tow
> vehicle
> hydraulic brake system with the loss of safety posed by breaking that
> flexible hose
> between tow vehicle and trailer. In those days, the tow vehicle brakes
> were a
> simpler system so adding the trailer hydraulic brakes didn't upset any
> balance.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:38:55 EST
From: JSmith1805@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: surge brakes
You still for safty reasons need an accessable manual overide which is
impossable with a surge systoms.you havent lived until you are on a slippery winding
road and you see a sail boat you have on a trailer with surge breaks
90degrees with the truck besides you and noway to apply thr breaks to bring it in
line.You cannot use antisway devises or load levering hitches with surge breaks.
The fallicy I find with the mordem break controllers is that the manual
overide switch is not readly accessable.in a white knuckle situtation I very much
doubt if any one can find and use it in time, I have a mechanical auxelery one
mounted on my dash but that realy is a stop gap masure I am looking for a
porpional type switch that can be mounted on my steering wheel or turn signal
stalk.
In traffic and when exiting freeways I like th manuel apply the breaks and
use the trailer to slow the vechile.Just my way of doing things I am sure some
one will point out to me why I should not do rhat
Jim Smith
1965 Tradewind(Ths Silver Abaltross)
1992 Dodge Cummind Diesel
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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:27:50 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald Johnson" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: surge brakes
I'm using a short and wide controller that in my truck with manual transmission
on the floor fits between the steering wheel and the dash. I can reach the
button with my right index finger while my right hand is still securely on the
steering wheel about 3 o'clock. This particular controller also has an optional
remote button that I have but haven't unwrapped. A loose button isn't all
that handy to find when needed.
I find its impractical to adjust the pendulum operated brake controller for all
braking situations. If set up to balance right in a hard stop, it works the trailer
brakes too much for gentle stops. So I set it to balance nicely for gentle
stops and plan on adding more trailer brake with my finger on the button
when a quicker stop is needed.
Optimally the trailer brakes and the truck brakes should work together, each
retarding the mass of their part of the rig. Depending on trailer brakes alone
can overheat them and wear them faster as does depending on truck
brakes alone. I tried trailer brakes alone once on a 1/4" mile grade in SE
Missouri. I could smell them in the truck cab by the time I got to the bottom.
Excess drum heat can destroy tires too, a stuck brake did that to the inner
dual on my old F-350 one day. And totally destroyed all the brake parts but
the backing plate, the drum and the brake cylinder.
The first two tow vehicles I ever drove didn't have the brake controller
connected to the vehicle brakes and so required the driver to apportion
the trailer brake pressure to the tow vehicle pressure manually. Took a bit of
earning but it worked well once learned, and was more versatile for really
tight situations.
Gerald J.
- --
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 12:27:54 -0500
From: Mark Pate <spectrumnc@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Comparing Airstreams
Hi Mary & Indiana:
I have a '66 GT and a '50 Spartan Mansion. As far as comparing the two, in
my opinion they are completely different animals. Most of the Spartans were
originally set up to be mobile homes rather than travel trailers (mine is
titled as such in NC). A vast majority of them are not self-contained (no
holding tanks, no water pumps, etc) many of them do not even have a bath.
Although the restored models seem to be going off the scale on eBay, the
unrestored ones don't appear to be worth nearly as much as an Airstream of
the same Vintage. Aside from that, the Spartans are really neat old pieces.
The original ones are much more Art Deco period design than the Airstreams,
which are basically timeless. There is a real good Spartan site if you'd
like to check it out. http://spartantrailer.com/.
We already enjoy the GT now, but the Spartan needs to be totally restored.
I hope to be able to keep them both. Will probably use the Spartan in the
parks and the GT when we want to go self-contained. Good luck on choosing.
Mark Pate
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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:59:31 -0500
From: "Tom" <thomm@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Bike rack on rear AS bumper
Toby, the only time I've seen any "signs of wear" on a welded joint it
was -- you guessed it -- broken. ;))
Tom
WBCCI 5303
From: "Toby Folwick" <toby_folwick@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Bike rack on rear AS bumper
> My 1960 Tradewind has a factory rear tire carrier. no
> signs of any wear to the weld joints, the frame, or
> the skin around it.
>
> Toby
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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:39:19 EST
From: Dillonvdill@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] 58' Overlander Hydralic Brakes
Thanks for all the info folks,
I'm still wondering if I replaced the old Stromberg master cylinder of the
hitch
with a modern surge controller, could I use the original brake assemblies
and
lines if after servicing they still work.
V. Dillon
'58 Overlander
66' Caravell
'56 Flying Cloud
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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:56:52 EST
From: WWOODBURNWOODY@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Re: 63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
Howdy V Dillon:
Please contact me back channel if you want information on
setting up the hydraulic brakes to work on your tow vehicle and rig. I set it
up
on my '58 Flying Cloud, 22 ft/'95 Landrover Defender and it has been working
fine for the previous owner for 40 years and for me for over 5 years. The
conversion costs about $200 parts and labor. You can't set it up if your
vehicle
has an ABS brake system.
John Woodburn
Pasadena, California
V Dillon wrote:
> I have a '58 26' Overlander that has the original hydralic
>(non-operating) brakes and to my knowledge has not been converted to
>electric.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:20:38 -0800
From: Rob Super <robsuper@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] copper?!
Sorry to re-open a thread that seems to have petered out (just picked
up several days' msgs), but re:
> copper appears
> to be neither 1/2" or 3/4". It actually measures 5/8" O.D. Neither I,
> nor any of the assorted hardware stores I've visited between Dallas and
> our current location (Galveston Island) have ever heard of 5/8". One
> hardware guy insisted that it must have been 1/2",
Nominal 1/2" copper pipe measures 5/8" OD.
"Nominal" means what it's called, not what it may actually measure.
Thus, e.g., a (nominal) "2x4" wooden stud actually measures 1.5" x
3.5". In the case of copper pipe, when the effective ID is ~1/2" it's
called "1/2 inch" . Bottom line: if it measures 5/8" on the outside
it's "1/2-inch" copper pipe and you want to use what the catalogs and
packages call "1/2-inch" fittings. Similarly, if it measures 1/2" OD
it's nominal "3/8-inch" copper pipe, etc.
And, just because the guilds like to keep things as mysterious as
possible, the nomenclature for copper refrigeration tubing is
different: their nominal "1/2-inch" tubing actually measures 1/2" OD,
their "5/8-inch" actually measures 5/8" OD, etc. --you really have to
make sure you and the hardware clerk (or the catalog) are speaking the
same language!
Rob
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:53:41 -0800
From: Gary Meeker <gmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.csus.edu>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Surge Brakes
>Has anyone tried or thought of putting the old fashioned U-haul type surge
>brake
>hitch on the trailer tonge to operate the old fashioned hydralic brakes on
>the
>1950's AS's? I have a '58 26' Overlander that has the original hydralic
>(non-operating) brakes and to my knowledge has not been converted to
>electric.
>V. Dillon
When my wife and I picked up our '56 Bubble in Delaware at the beginning of
its trip to California last spring it had only the original breakaway
hydraulic brake system and the lines were full of rust. The brakes would
not have worked even for their intended emergency purpose. Since we were
towing with our rather lightweight Toyota Tacoma, my wife insisted (and I
readily agreed) that we needed to somehow get brakes on the trailer before
we went very far. Fortunately the next day we found Stewart Natof of the
Washington DC Unit of WBCCI. Stewart, a Bambi owner and retired mechanical
engineer, led us to Contemporary Classics in Silver Spring, MD, a shop
which specializes in street rods and specialty cars. Stewart and the shop
owner engineered a hydraulic brake retrofit for the Bubble. The shop
dropped everything else they were working on and in two days we were on our
way west. The original brake pads and drums were retained but the wheel
cylinders, stainless steel lines, and hydraulic actuator are new. Our
original trailer coupler was sawed off and the actuator welded on in its
place. The Atwood actuator features a mechanical lock-out feature for
backing up. It works great and we made it to California without
incident. Thanks Stewart!
Gary Meeker
WBCCI/VAC #3781
1956 Airstream Bubble
Sacramento, CA
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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:24:38 EST
From: JAuman2346@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] Comparing Airstreams
I lived in a house trailer back in the 50's and we had a couple of Spartans
in the park. Do they still make those trailers? jauman2346@xxxxxxxxxx.com.
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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 19:50:19 EST
From: Indy116@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] making contact ....
Hello Uwe ....I misplaced the info you once sent me and have been hoping you
would post thanks .....
INDIANA
[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of Classic White.jpg]
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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 17:45:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Uwe Salwender <salwender@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] making contact ....
- --- Indy116@xxxxxxxxxx.com wrote:
> Hello Uwe ....I misplaced the info you once sent me
> and have been hoping you
> would post thanks .....
> INDIANA
Who? Me?
salwender@xxxxxxxxxx.net
Uwe
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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 22:06:58 -0500
From: "Scott Scheuermann" <s.l.scheuermann@xxxxxxxxxx.att.net>
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Airstream Video and book
My first thought was that the video he was talking about was on the VAC dvd.
I mailed him my copy to look at in case it was the one. However the way he
seemed to describe it, the one he is looking for is even more detailed and
placed in the 70's, not the 60's.
$145 for the book! I doubt that he would spring for that...but I am passing
on the info!
THANKS ALL!
Scott
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 19:13:14 -0800
From: William Kerfoot <wkerfoot@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Airstream video and book
Scott,
Is the video different than the first segment in the Vintage Airstream
Caravan DVD? This segment is entitled "Building Dreams is Our Business"
(1968).
Bill Kerfoot
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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 22:23:33 -0500
From: "C. Hyde" <brownhyde@primelink1.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] '63 Overlander New Axle with Disc Brakes
> Greetings,
> Has anyone tried or thought of putting the old fashioned U-haul type surge
> brake
> hitch on the trailer tonge to operate the old fashioned hydralic brakes on
> the
> 1950's AS's? I have a '58 26' Overlander that has the original
hydralic
> (non-operating) brakes and to my knowledge has not been converted to
> electric.
> V. Dillon
V.Dillon,
Several years ago I rebuilt an old car trailer that had hydraulic brakes
with a surge tongue. The hydraulic cylinder on the tongue was seized so I
decided to replace it. After a bit of web searching, I found
www.expediter.com who are an online trailer parts retailer located in
Florida. I called their tech dept and discussed my problem. They suggested
I use an electro-hydraulic pump which allows you to retain the hydraulic
brake sytem but allows you to activate it using the comon brake controllers
used with electric brakes. The system is basically a high pressure 12 volt
hydraulic pump hooked up to the brake lines. The brake controller turns the
pump on, varying pressure to the brakes. It comes with a small gel cell
along with a break away switch so it activates the brakes should the trailer
come off the tow vehicle. I have been very happy with the system and plan
to use another one on my 57 Sovereign of the Road. I think it cost around
$200 which included the small gel cell. When I use it in the Airstream
installation I will use the onboard house battery and save a bit on the gel
cell.
Hope this helps you out,
Colin
50 Limited
57 Sovereign of the Road
59 Ambassador International
63 Tradewind
66 Safari
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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:32:24 -0800 (PST)
From: robert brandt <rdbrandt_1930@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Disc brakes
The Feburary issue of Trailer Life that arrived
yesterday has an article on the installation of a disc
brake system. Easy to install according to the
article and the results were good. Might be something
to investigate.
Carole and Rob
San Diego
69 Caravel Sylvia
89 Astro (soon to be replaced)
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End of VAL Digest V2 #129
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