VAL Digest V1 #64

VAL Digest        Wednesday, November 12 2003        Volume 01 : Number 064




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Topics in Today's Digest:

Re: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks
[VAL] Floor Repair?
Re: [VAL] Floor Repair?
[VAL] The cost of Desire
Re: [VAL] The cost of Desire
RE: [VAL] The cost of Desire
RE: [VAL] 1957 Window Parts
Re: [VAL] The cost of Desire
Re: [VAL] The cost of Desire
Re: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks
[VAL] Boondocking NJ Tpke
[VAL] Boondocking I-95 Virginia
Re: [VAL] The cost of Desire
Re: [VAL] The cost of Desire
Re: [VAL] The cost of Desire

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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 06:42:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Tognetti <ctognetti59@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks

I pretty sure that I'm going to do a total rebuild if we end up buying.  I just took a 
bunch of PICS and should have them up by tomorrow evening.
 
My problem with putting a tank between the frame rails would be freezing.  I know you 
just need to run some anti-freeze into them but some times I'm a little slow in getting 
things done.  Also aren't you limited in the size of the tank?  From what I saw, it only 
looks like 4 to 6 inches in frame height.  Not much room.
 
Jo Ann - Any web site for Pelland Industries?
 
Chris, Amy, Natalie, Jordan Tognetti
Willie (Alaskan Malamute)
59 TradeWind
Newton, New Jersey
Serial # 249118





Joann Wheatley <jwheatle@xxxxxxxxxx.edu> wrote:In rebuilding the 57 Bubble, holding 
tanks were of prime importance to 
me - the little trailer had only a 7 gal fresh water tank. We have 
ordered 3 tanks now from Pelland Industries and will install them 
between the frame members. Suitable tanks are out there so I suppose 
the main difficulty for rebuilders is getting to the frame. In my 
rebuild, I removed the floor entirely and so I'll have plenty of room 
to put in the tanks and associated plumbing. Just wanted to reassure 
rebuilders that there's a broad selection of tanks that can be plumbed 
for use.
Jo Ann
On Monday, November 10, 2003, at 05:41 PM, Brad Norgaard wrote:

> Hi Chris - take a look at this link in the archive section of 
> Airstream.net.
>
> www.vintageairstream.com/archives1/59Tradewind/59TW.html
>
> This is my TradeWind and it didn't have either tank in it when I got 
> it. I
> put in one under the commode and use a blue stinkie for the grey 
> water. I
> know, its a pain but I didn't want to tackle having one made that fits
> between the frame rails. The stinkie works for now. I like the idea of
> pumping it into a tank in the truck bed. have to give that some 
> thought.
> Good luck and enjoy your '59 Trade Wind. Let us know when you get 
> pictures
> uploaded. I'd love to see them. What is your serial number?
>
> Brad Norgaard
> Phoenix
> '59 Trade Wind Twin
> VAC #2699, TCT
>
>
>
>> 59 TradeWind 24 foot. Bathroom in the rear. I still think the black 
>> water
>> tank is in it.
>>
>> Chris
>
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 06:44:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Tognetti <ctognetti59@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Floor Repair?

Next questions.  What is involved with doing a total floor replacement?  I understand that 
everything has to be removed from inside.  
 
How is the shell attached to the floor?  
 
Is it easy to get to the bolts/screws?  
 
Do you have to remove the inside wall panels to get to them?
 
Do you need to remove the belly pan?
 
If the frame is cutting into the belly pan how do you repair that?
 
Can this aluminum be welded? Or do I need to replace?
 
What about frame rot?  Has anybody had to deal with this?
 
Cutting the out side rivets for the belly pan.  What is the best way without causing damage to the skin?
 
Thanks for all the help.
 
Chris, Amy, Natalie, Jordan Tognetti
Willie (Alaskan Malamute)
59 TradeWind
Newton, New Jersey
Serial # 249118





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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:04:43 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Floor Repair?

There should be total floor replacement discussion in the archives. Some
advocate doing the floor replacement in sections to save pulling the
shell, a few have pulled the shell. I don't remember if those that have
pulled the shell have accomplished reinstalling it yet.

Another alternative is to drill a bunch of holes in the spongy parts of
the floor and saturate the wood with a restoration penetrating epoxy.
This may get unreasonably priced compared to the cost of a whole new
floor and its worth while finding the optimum epoxy suppliers. That sold
for home restoration, I recall as being significantly more expensive
than that sold in some marine supply stores.

Later shells are attached with carriage bolts through an edge channel,
often very hard to get at, and most often sawed with a reciprocating saw
because of rust and difficult to reach. I like the Milwaukee Sawzall for
that reciprocating saw. Its almost sure to require removing the inside
wall panels.

Belly pans are almost disposed when doing major work. The aluminum is
thin and tends to be very corroded and worn from being under there and
there aren't any complex curves except maybe right at the corners, so
removal is often the first step in the project and the last step near
completion. Otherwise the belly pan is in the way of all underfloor
tasks.

A good welder with heliarc can repair aluminum, though replacement
generally of belly pans is less expensive.

I've read of some early frames coming apart while being towed because of
rot. Some of the early frames had a single pipe down the middle and
weren't very strong before rusting. At least one of the group that did
lift the shell off designed and built a whole new frame to allow enough
strength for gray and black and fresh water tanks.

Rivets are best removed by drilling the center of the head (easy on the
inside pop rivets, more trouble outside) with a drill bit just the size
of the shank of the rivet. Replacement rivets are available along with
rivet shavers to make a neat job. One place to look about learning about
aluminum riveting and aluminum is the catalog of the Aircraft Spruce
Company. They cater to the builder of homebuilt aircraft. There are good
archives on riveting also.

Freezing is a reality, even if insulated without a heat source. You have
to be disciplined to do the winterizing or suffer the damaged plumbing.
Those that have had damaged plumbing have become adamant winterizers
because the time to winterize is far less than the time to replumb. Its
very much worth designing the plumbing system so there are extra drains
at the low spots (and the drain lines need to always drain to their
tank, no low spots allowed) to make it easy to drop the fresh cold and
hot water line contents. Sometimes where lines are nearly horizontal, it
takes some tilting of the trailer fore and aft with the tongue jack to
complete the draining. Then a gallon or two of pink RV antifreeze in the
water tank, lines and traps and the job is done. In spring it takes
fresh water and some flushing. Far better than freezing a pipe or two.

Yes the space in the floor for a tank is limited. That's why the toilet
ends up on a pedestal. That pedestal is its black water tank. Tanks will
tend to be small, but you don't have the water (except with a full
hookup) to take a 40 gallon shower. Nor the water heater. Showers are
limited to a gallon each, dishwashing a half gallon. Else the fresh
water tank is all transferred to the gray water tank in a few minutes.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:03:18 -0500
From: Gary <verygary@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: [VAL] The cost of Desire

I have been following the questions posed by Chris Tognetti and his
queries about
weather or not to take the next step and actually undertake this
restoration. It sounds like you are getting some good advice on the
costs envolved from other members. I have read numbers around the 7k
area which sounds in the middle range considering the condition of the
trailer and what your final asthetic considerations are. What about the
other costs?  What is your expected time frame to get this trailer on
the road. How much time can you spend on this project and how will it
affect other parts of your life. Will it provide a stress relieving
distraction or help add to it. Married with children?  Can you do this
now?  I think you are talking years to get this trailer in usable
service from the sound of it's overall condition. That may be OK as long
as you realize the timeline. This is not going to be an immediate
gradification project. 
I own a 62' Safari. Which I have named Sylvia. Now if you will picture a
sophisticated "mature" woman with specific needs that she has developed
over many years from being a member of a "special class." Mrs Robinson
comes to mind from "The Graduate" I know a younger Sylvia would be a
heathier choice, but my Sylvia has other needs that cannot be denied.
Because of her cool exterior patina that has withstood all of the harsh
realities of nature, along with that understated inner style, it was
first difficult to imagine how much effort it would take to bring out
that former LUSTer of a time gone by. But just below the surface of all
those harsh realities rest the kind of character that is difficult to
find in younger models. Sylvia has NEEDS. Most of the time they seem to
be very mysterious desires, hidden in some unseen place just below the
surface. Should I look there? Start peeling back that surface to expose
things I may not be able to handle? Or, should I carefully ask a few
questions from others who have also been suduced by the same desire.
This relationship is not for the unprepared. One must have or acquire
the "tools" to handle many of the adjustments and modifications that
will be asked of you. One must develop the vocabulary neccessary to be
understood by others that may be able to help guide you. You must allow
for "space" when needed as we all know we need a space to call our own.
Are you prepared to field questions from curious friends and neighbors
about where you are spending all of your free time and money? Some
people will not understand. They will assume you have finally have
confirmed what they suspected all along. I have discovered there are
many things I was unprepared for, and yet, I was driven to acquire and
provide them to Sylvia. Sylvia has my number. Be careful what you
desire. 
Gary Campbell
1962 Safari
wbcci 3363
Portland, Maine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:17:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Toby Folwick <toby_folwick@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] The cost of Desire

Now this is quite a story.  I hadn't named my trailer
yet, but I think she's just become "Mrs. Robinson."

Hope you don't mind me stealing that.  Anyway - I
think, in my experience, many of the costs that I've
incurred are related to tools purchased to do the
things I need to do.  If one looks at this
holistically, one will see that these tools can be
used for many things other than trailer restoration. 
One of the lessons I learned was to think about what I
could use the tools for other than my Airstream, then
buy the appropriate quality of tool for my future
needs.  This has led me to use my Cyclo polisher to
polish not only my trailer, but my car, and my
countertops (as well as the shower pan and the fridge
door) in those lonely winter nights without "Mrs.
Robinson."  It also led me to decide on a complete set
of cordless tools to rebuild Airstream cabinets, prune
trees, and build guard rails around the deck etc...

an accountant (which I don't claim to be) might figure
actual cost of restoring an Airstream by depreciating
these costs over the valuable life of the trailer (or
the restoration), which, done right, could be another
40 or 50 years!

Toby

- --- Gary <verygary@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com> wrote:
> I have been following the questions posed by Chris
> Tognetti and his
> queries about
> weather or not to take the next step and actually
> undertake this
> restoration. It sounds like you are getting some
> good advice...

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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:18:17 -0500
From: <harley.muse@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: RE: [VAL] The cost of Desire

Gary,

I think you've covered the entire spectrum.  Thanks for your wonderful
insight and playful way of expressing it.  A breath of fresh air!!

Harley Muse
WBCCI #7566
'74 Tradewind
'99 Durango

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:43:12 -0800
From: RJ.Dial@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: RE: [VAL] 1957 Window Parts

The 9 Inch Heavy Duty openers are available from Blaine at $13.00 each:
http://www.blainewindow.com

The model is 020, color is 037 - get the teardrop shape and pick what
side you want the crank angled.

You can also get the smaller 6" & 7" ones, but they are not available in
the exact color & shape, and are real expensive.  Most people use the
generic replacements available from online or local RV Parts stores.
What is you're still lacking is an adapter plate to change to the larger
hole pattern required.  RV places used to carry them, but I've not seen
them in years. The smaller generic openers will fail on the big front &
back windows.

Galvanized screen material you can get from
http://www.cornerhardware.com.  Hehr Closing Hooks are still available
from http://all-rite.com, although they are painted red and need to be
stripped.

If you have to replace a missing window, the only real options are
having a local sheetmetal shop fabricate one using another as an
example, or replace the entire assembly with a custom sized Jalousie
type window.  Don't have the URL in my head, but I may have it at home
if interested.

Best of luck
RJ


> -----Original Message-----
> From: kurt@xxxxxxxxxx.archetypegroup.com
> [mailto:kurt@xxxxxxxxxx.archetypegroup.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 10:39 AM
> To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> Subject: [VAL] 1957 Window Parts
>
>
> Hello List:
>
> Does anyone know where I can obtain windows and window parts
> for a 1957
> Flying Cloud? I need everything from cranks, to arms, to entire window
> frames if available.
>
> Thanks
>
> Kurt
> 2003 CCD International
> 1957 Flying Cloud

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:03:39 -0500
From: <lindner.1@xxxxxxxxxx.edu>
Subject: Re: [VAL] The cost of Desire

11/11/2003 5:17:42 AM, Toby Folwick <toby_folwick@xxxxxxxxxx.com> wrote:

>If one looks at this
>holistically, one will see that these tools can be
>used for many things other than trailer restoration. 

Ah, rationalization!  The classic sign of the incurable addict.

                     -- Lew #4239

'72 Safari
Custom Craft Megatow

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:15:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Toby Folwick <toby_folwick@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] The cost of Desire

I'm not really an addict until I admit it to myself
right?

Toby

p.s. I *really* did use my cyclo to polish my
countertops.  shiniest counters I've ever seen!

- --- lindner.1@xxxxxxxxxx.edu wrote:
> 11/11/2003 5:17:42 AM, Toby Folwick
> <toby_folwick@xxxxxxxxxx.com> wrote:
> 
> >If one looks at this
> >holistically, one will see that these tools can be
> >used for many things other than trailer
> restoration. 
> 
> Ah, rationalization!  The classic sign of the
> incurable addict.
> 
>                      -- Lew #4239
> 
> '72 Safari
> Custom Craft Megatow
> 
>
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> 
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>
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> 
> 


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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:24:16 -0800
From: Joann Wheatley <jwheatle@xxxxxxxxxx.edu>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks

Web site for Pelland/All Rite (a recent merger) is www.all-rite.com. 
and yes on some parts of the frame there's limited depth but a 6 inch 
deep tank that fits between the frame rails can be a pretty good size. 
Insulate them and then with the bellypan back in place they shouldn't 
freeze - and quit being slow in getting that antifreeze in - only the 
grey and black of course.
   What is the size, year and model of your trailer again? Be ready to 
speed a bunch of money if you're taking it down to the frame. I quit 
trying to figure out how much I've spent.
Jo Ann
>
> My problem with putting a tank between the frame rails would be 
> freezing.  I know you just need to run some anti-freeze into them but 
> some times I'm a little slow in getting things done.  Also aren't you 
> limited in the size of the tank?  From what I saw, it only looks like 
> 4 to 6 inches in frame height.  Not much room.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:46:25 -0500
From: Terry Tyler <tylerbears@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Boondocking NJ Tpke

Hi Guys,

Each Fall, when we roll south from the Northeast, we look for the first
night's safe spot where we can boondock or park. It needs to be convenient
for the next day's run. One of the tried and true places we've found is the
last service area on the NJ Tpke going south. It's called Clara Barton.

This SA is different from most in that the car parking lot is unusually long
(rectangle). One of the short ends is near the service area road beside the
restaurant. The other short end butts up against a tree line. The lot is
level with a bright street light at the farthest most corner. For nearly 20
years, we've stopped here and found it both safe and quiet.

Usually, we roll into this service area after dark. We back up against the
curb (it's low enough so our bumper doesn't scrape) under the street light
and over a manhole drain. Within an hour or two, other RVers stop and park
next to us. By morning, there can be a dozen or more RVs parking along the
same curb line. 

We've seen the Turnpike Police patrol this service area so we know they're
aware that we and others are parking here for needed rest.

By dawn, we're ready to buy breakfast at the restaurant (sometimes), check
our maps, get back on the turnpike, pay our toll almost immediately, cross
the Delaware Memorial Bridge ($6) and join the crowd going south.

Perhaps others will find this spot as convenient for them as it is for us,

Terry

mailto:tylerbears@xxxxxxxxxx.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:46:25 -0500
From: Terry Tyler <tylerbears@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Boondocking I-95 Virginia

Hi Gang,

The entire I-95 corridor is dotted with truck stops that welcome RVers
wanting to stay the night. Some truck stops (Flying J) have special places
set aside just for RVers. Others have perimeter locations not in the center
of the truck parking area. We prefer those. Generally, parking lots at truck
stops are level.... well - almost.

As for the noise, we don't hear it. A long time ago, we learned the sound of
truck engines is music to our ears. Some of our friends use ear plugs. We
save our ear plugs for rock concerts ?? held at WBCCI rallies.   <grin>

The Flying J stations have a listing of all their locations. It's on the
counter beside the cash register. We have favorite ones. For example, when
we stop in Latta, SC, I prefer a macadam parking spot on the east side along
the wall at the north end. It is large enough for 2 RVs and both have full
access for leaving in the morning.  There is room for 6 more RVs along the
same wall.

PLUS - A BIG PLUS - the Flying J at Latta, SC has a huge lot up on a grassy
knoll that can accommodate dozens of RVs. It is just beyond the north end of
the paved parking and up a small incline. At the top of the rise, we go left
along the ridge and make a full circle around to the right so we are facing
the entry gate when we stop. There are an abundance of level spots.

We've found the Flying J Restaurant buffet "take-out" is more than we can
eat ($8) for two days and their prices for fuel and propane are among the
least expensive along the I-95 corridor.

We stayed at this truck stop Sunday night (11/09/03). When we arrived, our
batteries were fully charged, we watched TV (excellent reception) a couple
hours, I bought the take-out buffet meal, we used our lights for several
hours, ran the furnace in the morning (40 degrees outside) for two hours and
rolled out of the parking lot  that morning with our batteries at 75% of
fully charged. By Monday evening, our solar panels had brought our two
batteries up to 100% charged (14.00 volts).

Why am I mentioning all this? Simple, there are dozens and dozens of truck
stops along the I-95 corridor. We have found them safe and convenient when
we're "hustling the highway" from one area of the country to another area.

This style of overnight parking is not for everyone and it's not for us
either EXCEPT when we're fleeing freezing weather or impending snow storms
or whenever we feel so inclined (avoiding the path of a tornado).

Both of us like the freedom boondocking gives us and the camaraderie we
experience with other RVers whom we'd never meet otherwise. Sometimes this
occurs at truck stops, often it occurs on BLM land in Arizona, routinely it
occurs at city/town/village parks across the country.

If you'd like to read more on boondocking, go to:

http://sierranevadaairstreams.org/owners-guide/living/terry-tips.html

Next stop for us are the hot springs near the National Park in Salt Springs,
FL, then to Vero Beach where we have a month with full hookups on the
Internet Special ($150) offered by rvonthego.com.

Reading our email is backed up. For the next week, I'll only be reading and
replying to emails addressed to me specifically. Once we arrive for our
month in Vero Beach, I'll read everything and get caught up.

Sandie is enjoying her new "Composer" with our cell phone for her email.
This is her fourth year with pocketmail and she loves it.

Cheers, 

Terry
mailto:tylerbears@xxxxxxxxxx.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:55:34 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] The cost of Desire

harley.muse@xxxxxxxxxx.com wrote:
> 
> Gary,
> 
> I think you've covered the entire spectrum.  Thanks for your wonderful
> insight and playful way of expressing it.  A breath of fresh air!!
> 
> Harley Muse
> WBCCI #7566
> '74 Tradewind
> '99 Durango
> 

AMEN, AMEN!!!

Gerald J.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:22:31 -0500
From: <lindner.1@xxxxxxxxxx.edu>
Subject: Re: [VAL] The cost of Desire

11/11/2003 6:15:26 AM, Toby Folwick <toby_folwick@xxxxxxxxxx.com> wrote:

>I'm not really an addict until I admit it to myself
>right?

Yes you are (that is denial this time) -- but it does help to admit it to the rest of your 
twelve-step members (isn't that what 
this list is for?).

              -- Lew #4239

'72 Safari
Custom Craft Megatow

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:36:30 -0600
From: "Don Hardman" <donhardman@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] The cost of Desire

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: <lindner.1@xxxxxxxxxx.edu>
> Ah, rationalization!  The classic sign of the incurable addict.

I have a big file folder that I put my Airstream receipts in and it is
bulging at the sides. I am afraid to pull it out and add up all of the
receipts. Oh well I did not spend much at all this year, the Hensley hitch
is paid for and the economy is improving so maybe its time for a new AC or
fridge. Or what about satellite TV and radio. I really would like to get a
couple of those "bearbed mattresses".

Don Hardman
1976 Sovereign

------------------------------

End of VAL Digest V1 #64
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