The Vintage Airstream E-mail ListDigest Archive Files
VAL Digest V1 #63
VAL Digest Tuesday, November 11 2003 Volume 01 : Number 063
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Topics in Today's Digest:
[VAL] Towing weight
Re: [VAL] Towing weight
RE: [VAL] Towing weight
[VAL] Airstream For Sale Advertisement
Re: [VAL] Airstream For Sale Advertisement
RE: [VAL] Towing weight
Re: [VAL] Towing weight
Re: [VAL] Towing weight
Re: [VAL] Towing weight
[VAL] Black & Grey Tanks
Re: [VAL] Towing weight
[VAL] Re: estimating restoration costs
Re: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks
Re: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks
Re: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks
Re: [VAL] Towing weight
Re: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks
Re: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks
Re: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks
[VAL] Hello
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 06:54:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Tognetti <ctognetti59@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Towing weight
Hi All,
I'm looking for the weight of a 59 TradeWind. At
http://homepages.isunet.net/geraldj its listed at 3830 lbs.
I think this is for one closer to 69'. Reason I'm asking is that I did tow it to my house which was about 45
minutes. Only had the weight disbutation hitch on. We had an anti-sway hitch hooked up but forgot to lock it.
I was towing with a 96 Blazer. Lots of hills and back roads. The brakes on the trailer aren't working as
someone took the hook-up. Blazer handle it ok. Working on hills but did alright. Was only able to get to 50
before we started to wag. Was thinking that if the anti-sway was locked should have been able to go a little
bit more. The blazer is rated for 5000 lbs.
Am I asking for trouble?
Chris
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:11:35 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Towing weight
The table on my web page is for the 1968 manual. I can't say about a
'59. A blazer has a short wheelbase and that helps make it twitchy
especially if its a two door blazer.
Gerald J.
- --
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:10:10 -0500
From: "Vasquez, David" <DVASQUEZ@mta-esa.org>
Subject: RE: [VAL] Towing weight
Gretting Chris
Even though you were able to tow with the blazer you have to remember that
wheelbase
is one of the most important factor. The blazer does not have that factor.
(hint, suburban. Even with the sway bar mounted and working, you would run
into trouble in
panic stop mode. I believe the rest of the group will agree.
David Vasquez
WBCCI and VAC
1973 Sovereign 1979 Suburban
1960 Shasta 1977 Chevelle
- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Tognetti [mailto:ctognetti59@xxxxxxxxxx.com]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:54 AM
To: VAL List
Subject: [VAL] Towing weight
Hi All,
I'm looking for the weight of a 59 TradeWind. At
http://homepages.isunet.net/geraldj its listed at 3830 lbs.
I think this is
for one closer to 69'. Reason I'm asking is that I did tow it to my house
which was about 45 minutes. Only had the weight disbutation hitch on. We
had an anti-sway hitch hooked up but forgot to lock it. I was towing with a
96 Blazer. Lots of hills and back roads. The brakes on the trailer aren't
working as someone took the hook-up. Blazer handle it ok. Working on hills
but did alright. Was only able to get to 50 before we started to wag. Was
thinking that if the anti-sway was locked should have been able to go a
little bit more. The blazer is rated for 5000 lbs.
Am I asking for trouble?
Chris
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:52:44 -0500
From: <harley.muse@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Airstream For Sale Advertisement
In yesterday's Washington Post there was a "'65 Airstream - Vintage,
heat, ac, FBA, sleeps 6, like new condition" listed. Does anyone have
any idea what "FBA" might denote?
Harley C. Muse
WBCCI #7566, VAC
Washington DC Unit
'74 Tradewind
'99 Durango
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:00:42 EST
From: SHMossLanding@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] Airstream For Sale Advertisement
Maybe "full bath Area"?
Chuck & Lynn
1965 Overlander
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:59:34 -0500
From: "Vasquez, David" <DVASQUEZ@mta-esa.org>
Subject: RE: [VAL] Towing weight
Gretting Chris
Even though you were able to tow with the blazer you have to remember that
wheelbase
is one of the most important factor. The blazer does not have that factor.
(hint, suburban. Even with the sway bar mounted and working, you would run
into trouble in
panic stop mode. I believe the rest of the group will agree.
David Vasquez
WBCCI and VAC
1973 Sovereign 1979 Suburban
1960 Shasta 1977 Chevelle
- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Tognetti [mailto:ctognetti59@xxxxxxxxxx.com]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:54 AM
To: VAL List
Subject: [VAL] Towing weight
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:33:01 -0500
From: "Scott Scheuermann" <s.l.scheuermann@xxxxxxxxxx.att.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Towing weight
Chris,
I have a 1960 26 footer, so I can give you a very close guess as to what
your 1959 24 footer will weigh. When my trailer is fully loaded and ready to
go it weighs in very close to 5000#. If you load your trailer similiar to
how I do ( a BIG IF ) your trailer will weigh in at about 4500 to 4800
pounds. This will be pushing the stated limits for your Blazer, but may be
OK. As for the trailer starting to sway at 50 mph. This is a classic symptom
of too little tongue weight. A properly loaded trailer will not 'wag' under
normal conditions at any speed normally seen in the USA. Get the weight off
the rear of the trailer and try to pack things so that more weight is up
front. Anti sway mechanisms are not built to compensate for an improperly
loaded trailer like you have. They are made to control sway induced by
things like passing semis and gusty winds.
While your Blazer may handle the weight, you will find that a vehicle with a
longer wheelbase will vastly improve your towing experience. Another option
would be to get one of the costly hitches. Others can give you names and
approx costs.
Scott
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Tognetti" <ctognetti59@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
To: "VAL List" <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 9:54 AM
Subject: [VAL] Towing weight
> Hi All,
>
> I'm looking for the weight of a 59 TradeWind. At
http://homepages.isunet.net/geraldj its listed at 3830 lbs.
I think this is
for one closer to 69'. Reason I'm asking is that I did tow it to my house
which was about 45 minutes. Only had the weight disbutation hitch on. We
had an anti-sway hitch hooked up but forgot to lock it. I was towing with a
96 Blazer. Lots of hills and back roads. The brakes on the trailer aren't
working as someone took the hook-up. Blazer handle it ok. Working on hills
but did alright. Was only able to get to 50 before we started to wag. Was
thinking that if the anti-sway was locked should have been able to go a
little bit more. The blazer is rated for 5000 lbs.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:44:06 -0500
From: "Scott Scheuermann" <s.l.scheuermann@xxxxxxxxxx.att.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Towing weight
Another thing Chris, I'm sure that you realize that trailer brakes are your
biggest safety issue. Please get them working before next time you get it on
the road.
Scott
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:26:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Tognetti <ctognetti59@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Towing weight
The Blazer is pushing it. Even with the 4x4 four door model which is rate a little
lighter that the two door 2x4. Plans for the future include a full size custom van
but that is more than likely a year or more off.
I guess with everything working it might be do-able for short trips. Get the brakes
hooked up again and working. Load it correctly. Just clean it out this week end.
Must have been a 1000 lbs of junk in it. Plan to take pics of it tonight and have
them up to the web in a day or two.
Chris
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:35:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Tognetti <ctognetti59@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks
Here is a question. I just cleaned out the trailer of years of junk and was able to
take a good look around and started to have some question about the bathroom. Were do
you put the black and grey tanks? The belly pan just happens to be off under the shower
(Found that piece of beely pan inside the trailer" and all I see is a large pipe coming
down from the shower bottom with a turn off switch by the bumper. Now when I go to rebuild
this were do you put them?
Chris
Man of many questions.
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:36:25 -0700
From: "gshippen" <gshippen@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Towing weight
Hello Dr. G,
How about an equation that represents the leverage factor? Ie. distance
from draw bar to rear axle vs. distance from rear axle to front axle. I can
tell that my 94 suburban with longer wheel base and shorter distance from
draw bar to rear axle is more steady than the old sub. with shorter wheel
base and longer distance to the draw bar. Any ideas?
GAS
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [VAL] Towing weight
> The table on my web page is for the 1968 manual. I can't say about a
> '59. A blazer has a short wheelbase and that helps make it twitchy
> especially if its a two door blazer.
>
> Gerald J.
> --
> Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
> Reproduction by permission only.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:04:23 -0800 (PST)
From: jon fitz <fitzjo1@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Re: estimating restoration costs
I couldn't help replying to your post because I, too,
am restoring a 68 Overlander (or should I say that I
have been restoring it for two years?)
I had floor rot at the rear, frame separation, damaged
water supply lines, rusted-out black water tank
supports, a broken water heater and furnace, various
leaks and innumerable cosmetic issues.
On the other hand, all of the original stuff was
present, and I didn't need much that wasn't
commercially available.
I really don't know how much I've spent because I
haven't tried to add it all up. I am convinced that
it is probably cheaper to buy a unit that is already
restored if you can afford the upfront cost and your
time is worth minimum wage. On the other hand, you
can be assured of having all of the work done to your
satisfaction if you do it yourself--which brings me to
what I see as the biggest variable controlling
restoration cost.
Here's a way to test yourself. Imagine that you are
removing, say, the couch frame to work on the water
tank. Do you: a)work on the tank and promptly
reassamble the works; or, b)decide that since the
frame is out anyway, it's a perfect time to refinish
it and seal the floor under the tank.
If you answered "b" (which, by the way, is exactly
what I did :) ) the cost is gonna be way more than you
ever guessed. But, there's no one on earth who would
do the work to your standards at a cost you could
afford anyway--in other words, welcome to your new
hobby!
If you answered "a" the cost probably won't be so
high. I could have done just the running gear and the
floor rot/frame separation project for about $500,
including the tires. I just couldn't resist the urge
to restore the entire bathroom, run new piping,
refinish the woodwork (that had to come out during the
project) and install new tile.
The wonderful thing is that I have been using the
camper since shortly after I purchased it. Each trip
includes some nice new improvement, so it is very
rewarding. We have had the camper for two years and
have spent almost two months in it. If you get tired
of working on it, quit for awhile until you get the
bug to fix a particular thing. Then the cost ends up
being more like general spending money for a hobby
than a single, large investment.
Jon in SC
68 Overlander (the Lunar Schooner)
#9573
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:07:47 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks
Gray water tank is a problem. It wasn't part of an Airstream before the
70s. The sink and shower drains went straight out. There was a black
water tank under the toilet, and often the gray water line joined the
black water drain after the black water valve. Adding a gray water tank
can require significant ingenuity and agility in tank shaping to fit the
space. One wider suggestion I've seen was to fill some of the underfloor
space with a collection of 4" plastic pipes using them to make a
distributed gray water tank.
Gerald J.
- --
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:37:19 -0600
From: Dean <dean@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks
We all need more information. What year and what size??
Are the tanks missing? You may not have a Gray water tank.
Many older units did not.
On Nov 10, 2003, at 12:35 PM, Chris Tognetti wrote:
> Here is a question. I just cleaned out the trailer of years of junk
> and was able to take a good look around and started to have some
> question about the bathroom. Were do you put the black and grey
> tanks? The belly pan just happens to be off under the shower(Found
> that piece of beely pan inside the trailer" and all I see is a large
> pipe coming down from the shower bottom with a turn off switch by the
> bumper. Now when I go to rebuild this were do you put them?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:41:00 -0600
From: Dean <dean@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks
I have been giving it some thought also as our unit is a 1970. I have
been
thinking about a pump to pump the gray water into a thank in the back
of our truck. Then I could just drive to the dump station and unload.
Dean
On Nov 10, 2003, at 1:07 PM, Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer
wrote:
> Gray water tank is a problem. It wasn't part of an Airstream before the
> 70s. The sink and shower drains went straight out. There was a black
> water tank under the toilet, and often the gray water line joined the
> black water drain after the black water valve. Adding a gray water tank
> can require significant ingenuity and agility in tank shaping to fit
> the
> space. One wider suggestion I've seen was to fill some of the
> underfloor
> space with a collection of 4" plastic pipes using them to make a
> distributed gray water tank.
>
> Gerald J.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:03:05 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Towing weight
Yes a lever formula would show up the poor geometry of an extended van.
I think it would be more precise if it included a factor for the vehicle
weight on each axle.
Say a ratio: (front axle to hitch ball times front axle load) / (front
axle to rear axle times rear axle load).
Or leaving out the axle weight, (front axle to rear axle [wheelbase] /
(rear axle to hitch ball).
In either of these, the longer wheelbase vehicle would show a higher
number and with weight involved, the pickup would give a higher number
than the Suburban. The first one would give a less valuable number with
a fifth wheel hitch or one approximating that pivot point, while the
second would go astronomical for such hitches.
Try another to replace that first one: (front axle to hitch ball times
front axle load) / (rear axle to hitch ball times rear axle load). This
gives the fifth wheel or Henseley hitch (using hitch effective pivot
point rather than the hitch ball itself) a very high rating or infinity
if the hitch ball is truly over the axle, and gives the extended rear
van and the short wheel base tow vehicle a low rating.
Since the trailer weight and effective side wind load has an effect, it
might be that those could be included. But the last formula with axle
load is fairly general. A 3/4 ton Burb with the same wheelbase as a 1/2
ton burb should give a higher number though it will depend on the weight
distribution. And for more precision the axle weight should include the
effects of tongue load with and without load equalizing bars.
Another factor in side stability is the side stiffness of the tires.
Recent SUVs have tended to go with tall tires to achieve ground
clearance. I believe this is a fundamental failure of design that makes
them less stable with side thrust of a trailer windage and when cornered
hard the tall tires give way and let the vehicle roll. I'd much rather
see a lower profile tire with stiffer side walls to be stiffer side
ways.
Gerald J.
- --
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:10:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Tognetti <ctognetti59@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks
59 TradeWind 24 foot. Bathroom in the rear. I still think the black water tank is in it.
Chris
Dean <dean@xxxxxxxxxx.net> wrote:
We all need more information. What year and what size??
Are the tanks missing? You may not have a Gray water tank.
Many older units did not.
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:41:33 -0700
From: Brad Norgaard <stream2699@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks
Hi Chris - take a look at this link in the archive section of Airstream.net.
www.vintageairstream.com/archives1/59Tradewind/59TW.html
This is my TradeWind and it didn't have either tank in it when I got it. I
put in one under the commode and use a blue stinkie for the grey water. I
know, its a pain but I didn't want to tackle having one made that fits
between the frame rails. The stinkie works for now. I like the idea of
pumping it into a tank in the truck bed. have to give that some thought.
Good luck and enjoy your '59 Trade Wind. Let us know when you get pictures
uploaded. I'd love to see them. What is your serial number?
Brad Norgaard
Phoenix
'59 Trade Wind Twin
VAC #2699, TCT
> 59 TradeWind 24 foot. Bathroom in the rear. I still think the black water
> tank is in it.
>
> Chris
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:33:10 -0800
From: Joann Wheatley <jwheatle@xxxxxxxxxx.edu>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Black & Grey Tanks
In rebuilding the 57 Bubble, holding tanks were of prime importance to
me - the little trailer had only a 7 gal fresh water tank. We have
ordered 3 tanks now from Pelland Industries and will install them
between the frame members. Suitable tanks are out there so I suppose
the main difficulty for rebuilders is getting to the frame. In my
rebuild, I removed the floor entirely and so I'll have plenty of room
to put in the tanks and associated plumbing. Just wanted to reassure
rebuilders that there's a broad selection of tanks that can be plumbed
for use.
Jo Ann
On Monday, November 10, 2003, at 05:41 PM, Brad Norgaard wrote:
> Hi Chris - take a look at this link in the archive section of
> Airstream.net.
>
> www.vintageairstream.com/archives1/59Tradewind/59TW.html
>
> This is my TradeWind and it didn't have either tank in it when I got
> it. I
> put in one under the commode and use a blue stinkie for the grey
> water. I
> know, its a pain but I didn't want to tackle having one made that fits
> between the frame rails. The stinkie works for now. I like the idea of
> pumping it into a tank in the truck bed. have to give that some
> thought.
> Good luck and enjoy your '59 Trade Wind. Let us know when you get
> pictures
> uploaded. I'd love to see them. What is your serial number?
>
> Brad Norgaard
> Phoenix
> '59 Trade Wind Twin
> VAC #2699, TCT
>
>
>
>> 59 TradeWind 24 foot. Bathroom in the rear. I still think the black
>> water
>> tank is in it.
>>
>> Chris
>
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>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:39:52 -0800
From: "Kathy Hunt" <khunt@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Hello
I am testing to see if I'm subscribed
I hope I am back on this list. Many things have changed since I went on No
Mail.
Kathy WBCCI #17792
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