The Vintage Airstream E-mail ListDigest Archive Files
VAL Digest V1 #336
VAL Digest Wednesday, August 11 2004 Volume 01 : Number 336
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Topics in Today's Digest:
[VAL] Boyle's Gas Law
Re: [VAL] Nitrogen doesn't expand when heated?
Re: [VAL] Nitrogen doesn't expand when heated? Water vapor?
[VAL] Re:direct TV
Re: [VAL] Re:direct TV
Re: [VAL] Boyle's Gas Law
Re: [VAL] Boyle's Gas Law
Re: [VAL] Boyle's Gas Law
Re: [VAL] Boyle's Gas Law
RE: [VAL] 65 ambassador oven gas
Re: [VAL]theres nothing easy about it
Re: [VAL]theres nothing easy about it
[VAL] Dump Valve in 1960 Pacer - Followup
Re: [VAL] Dump Valve in 1960 Pacer - Followup
Re: [VAL] Dump Valve in 1960 Pacer - Followup
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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 07:09:56 -0700
From: Susan Altstatt <dsa@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Boyle's Gas Law
A web search reveals:
pV=kT Robert Boyle, 1627-1691
p=pressure
V=volume
k=constant, having to do with number of molecules and units of expression
T= absolute temperature
freshmen chemistry
check it out.
- --
Susan Altstatt
www.altstatt.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:52:44 -0400
From: Dick Kenan <as5368@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Nitrogen doesn't expand when heated?
Water vapor is a gas, like nitrogen. It expands and contracts
with temperature, like all gases. The fact that the nitrogen used by
racers is dry is, indeed, important, but the water vapor has little effect
on the expansion.
Neither water vapor or nitrogen are ideal gases, but for practical
purposes in tire inflation, they are close enough. Nitrogen, of course,
cannot condense upon cooling to ordinary ambient temperatures, and is
relatively inert. It's possible that the water vapor may interact somewhat
with the tire interior. But, it's expansion/contraction properties are
very similar to those of nitrogen and of ordinary air.
- - Dick
(5368)
At 12:29 AM 8/10/2004, you wrote:
>I'm sure notrogen expands with temperature, but . . . racers use nitrogen
>in tires because it doesn't contain water vapor like regular air. Without
>the water vapor expanding the change in tire pressure due to heating of the
>tire is much less.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the
intelligent are full of doubt."
- - Bertrand Russell
- ---------------------------------------
Dick Kenan Tel: 770-451-0672
Retired and loving it!
Atlanta
WBCCI # 5368, 28' 1995 Excella
Atlanta
mailto:as5368@xxxxxxxxxx.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~as5368/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:03:28 -0500
From: "Dr. Gerald Johnson" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Nitrogen doesn't expand when heated? Water vapor?
I don't think water VAPOR acts differently than any other gas. It still
follows Boyle's gas law. All gasses expand when heated. And if
constrained in volume, then the pressure goes up.
When water vapor condenses or freezes, I can see a pressure
change. I don't think that's a factor on the auto race track. While I've
not been into thousands of tires, I don't recall ever noticing any tracks
in the dust inside a tire just pulled from a rim showing marks of liquid
rolling along. And some of my pulled tires were on my truck with winter
temperatures down to 30 or 35 below.
Condensation and freezing could be a more significant problem for
high altitude aircraft where the ambient gets down to 50 or 60 below
each flight. But then in aircraft any oxygen in the tire helps support
combustion while nitrogen would inhibit combustion when that tire is
overworked during landing. How many landings does a tire make
anyway in its lifetime? How many miles? I suspect relatively few miles
compared to our truck tires. Not really long enough for oxidation to
damage the tire from the inside.
I believe racers use nitrogen because someone said its good and its
used for aircraft without ever being sure that there is any benefit. With
million buck budgets, what's a few bucks for tire nitrogen? Since they
do change tire pressures during a race, I'd expect to notice nitrogen
cylinders in the pits, but I haven't. At least they don't stick out on TV. I
don't hear the announcers go on about using nitrogen instead of air
and some of the announcers are drivers. They comment on the most
trivial of things, nitrogen instead of air in tires would be fodder if they
though it the least different. Especially in NASCAR where they want to
emphasize the stock, where really the only thing stock in the cars is the
painted car maker's logo.
Gerald J.
- --
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:36:26 EDT
From: AlanTBird@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Re:direct TV
In a message dated 8/8/2004 10:02:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com writes:
"I have a Motorola DirecTV reciever that is beeping; a single tone about
> > every 7 minutes. This happened once before about five years ago, and I
> > can't for the life of me remember how to reset whatever it is that's
> > causing the beep. Anybody know?"
Anytime I have issues with mine I just unplug it for 15 seconds and that
resets is unless your getting a message then in that case click on menu and go to
messages to read what ever crap they are trying to sell you like a PPV fight
or something!
AlanT
Phx AZ<<<113* on monday :( ~and it's NOT A DRY HEAT!!!!!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:45:33 -0400
From: "Tom" <thomm@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re:direct TV
Thanks, Alan. I'll pass it on.
Tom
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <AlanTBird@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 12:36 PM
Subject: [VAL] Re:direct TV
> In a message dated 8/8/2004 10:02:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
> valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com writes:
> "I have a Motorola DirecTV reciever that is beeping; a single tone about
> > > every 7 minutes. This happened once before about five years ago, and
I
> > > can't for the life of me remember how to reset whatever it is that's
> > > causing the beep. Anybody know?"
> Anytime I have issues with mine I just unplug it for 15 seconds and that
> resets is unless your getting a message then in that case click on menu
and go to
> messages to read what ever crap they are trying to sell you like a PPV
fight
> or something!
>
> AlanT
> Phx AZ<<<113* on monday :( ~and it's NOT A DRY HEAT!!!!!
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:26:06 -0500
From: "Dean L." <dean@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Boyle's Gas Law
Many messages ago I was in reference to the volume change
from water to steam..
Please check your books and see how many
times water will expand then answer what you are going to do
with all that steam in your tires.
A race car tire will get very hot.
Dry Air is hard to come by on the track but a tank of Nitrogen is
easy to transport and use.
I find it interesting that we have become So Picky and try to
correct others as we get older.
See You On The Road
Dean L.
WBCCI 2486
On Aug 10, 2004, at 9:09 AM, Susan Altstatt wrote:
> A web search reveals:
>
> pV=kT Robert Boyle, 1627-1691
>
> p=pressure
> V=volume
> k=constant, having to do with number of molecules and units of
> expression
> T= absolute temperature
>
> freshmen chemistry
>
> check it out.
>
>
> --
> Susan Altstatt
> www.altstatt.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 13:54:45 -0700
From: Joann Wheatley <jwheatle@xxxxxxxxxx.edu>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Boyle's Gas Law
Hi Dean:
Re the Pickyness thing. I think you're right on the button - it's
definitely age related and I suspect due to our own insecurity about
memory and retaining our intelligence as we age. I'm guilty of it
myself and I can't believe some of the stuff that comes out of my mouth
when I correct my poor sweet spouse. I mean, what the heck does it
usually matter anyway? Dr. J however, as well as others sometime
prevent the rest of us from blowing ourselves up or setting the rig on
fire so that I don't mind too much.
Jo Ann
On 10, Aug 2004, at 1:26 PM, Dean L. wrote:
> Many messages ago I was in reference to the volume change
> from water to steam..
> Please check your books and see how many
> times water will expand then answer what you are going to do
> with all that steam in your tires.
> A race car tire will get very hot.
> Dry Air is hard to come by on the track but a tank of Nitrogen is
> easy to transport and use.
>
> I find it interesting that we have become So Picky and try to
> correct others as we get older.
>
> See You On The Road
> Dean L.
> WBCCI 2486
>
>
>
> On Aug 10, 2004, at 9:09 AM, Susan Altstatt wrote:
>
>> A web search reveals:
>>
>> pV=kT Robert Boyle, 1627-1691
>>
>> p=pressure
>> V=volume
>> k=constant, having to do with number of molecules and units of
>> expression
>> T= absolute temperature
>>
>> freshmen chemistry
>>
>> check it out.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Susan Altstatt
>> www.altstatt.com
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:33:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Uwe Salwender <salwender@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Boyle's Gas Law
- --- "Dean L." <dean@xxxxxxxxxx.net> wrote:
> Many messages ago I was in reference to the volume
> change
> from water to steam..
> Please check your books and see how many
> times water will expand then answer what you are
> going to do
> with all that steam in your tires.
> A race car tire will get very hot.
> Dry Air is hard to come by on the track but a tank
> of Nitrogen is
> easy to transport and use.
>
> I find it interesting that we have become So Picky
> and try to
> correct others as we get older.
>
> See You On The Road
> Dean L.
> WBCCI 2486
Dean,
I hear you . We have lots of theory here, but no one
with actual hands on experience.
I often help my friend at the cart races. Little
gumball tires, little air volume, but substantial
pressure increases as they get very very hot.
after battling this for a while, we switched to
nitrogen for this, and guess what.....big improvement.
Books and formulas are great, but there is one or the
other factor our engineer friends are obviously
missing, otherwise we would not have had this
improvement on the race cart.
However, having said that, I see little sense in using
nitrogen in trailer tires, other than corrosion
prevention in the long run. Here again, the inside of
the wheels on my 63 Overlander reveal much corrosion.
Drier air ( or some other gas, like perhaps nitrogen)
might have prevented this. Who knows.
In any case, text books and theories only work when
ALL factors and all components are known.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 16:41:46 -0500
From: "Dean L." <dean@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Boyle's Gas Law
:)
See You On The Road
Dean L.
WBCCI 2486
On Aug 10, 2004, at 3:54 PM, Joann Wheatley wrote:
> Hi Dean:
> Re the Pickyness thing. I think you're right on the button - it's
> definitely age related and I suspect due to our own insecurity about
> memory and retaining our intelligence as we age. I'm guilty of it
> myself and I can't believe some of the stuff that comes out of my
> mouth when I correct my poor sweet spouse. I mean, what the heck does
> it usually matter anyway? Dr. J however, as well as others sometime
> prevent the rest of us from blowing ourselves up or setting the rig on
> fire so that I don't mind too much.
> Jo Ann
> On 10, Aug 2004, at 1:26 PM, Dean L. wrote:
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:36:23 -0600
From: "jcchome" <jcchome@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: RE: [VAL] 65 ambassador oven gas
Ken,
Try looking for a small brass valve turned by a flat blade screw driver.
It will be part of the oven likely between the oven temperature control
knob and the flare fitting that connects to the gas line. If not this,
disconnect the gas line at the oven and assure that gas is reaching the
end of the line. Don't do this with a match.
Best Regards,
Jim
jcchome@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com
[mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com]
> On Behalf Of ken clarkson
> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 12:46 PM
> To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> Subject: [VAL] 65 ambassador oven gas
>
> I'm still trying to figure out how to turn on the gas
> on my 65 ambassador oven. Any ideas as to where the
> valve is closest to the oven? The oven is adjacent to
> the fridge and not attached to the stove top (which is
> by the sink).
>
> -Ken
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original
text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:32:22 -0400
From: Chris Elliott <celliott@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL]theres nothing easy about it
Man everything I do on the old 63 turns into reinventing the wheel . Yesterdays
project was to install the new furnace . I knew that the new model required the new
exhaust vent , last year I patched in the old hole with buck rivets and was prepared
to cut the two holes needed to exhaust . However this time I read the instuctions
first , and wouldnt you know it , the new furnace heating duct on the bottom is on
front . Sooo My furnace is over the wheel well , and used to rest on the ductwork
going to the back of the furnace . Which means that I have to take the cabinet back
out , remove the old duct , fabricate a new duct, Which aint gonna be easy cause it
goes from 10.5 to 8 inches ,and 3.5 to three and is tipped forward about 2 inches .
Better make it out of a pizza box first . Back to my old shop to use the brake , 20
minutes each way , pity I was just there the other day using the jump shear . Oh yea
, and weld a base of angle alum. cause it wont sit on the old duct anymore .
I`d really like to go camping in this thing , I got a big trip planned . I got
lots more to do yet ....without these hinderances.
Just venting ,
Chris 63 cloud
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 03:05:02 +0000
From: c-l@xxxxxxxxxx.net
Subject: Re: [VAL]theres nothing easy about it
Ain't vintage trailers fun. Good Luck
Chuck & Lynn
1965 Overlander
1960 Tradewind
- -------------- Original message --------------
> Man everything I do on the old 63 turns into reinventing the wheel . Yesterdays
> project was to install the new furnace . I knew that the new model required the
> new
> exhaust vent , last year I patched in the old hole with buck rivets and was
> prepared
> to cut the two holes needed to exhaust . However this time I read the
> instuctions
> first , and wouldnt you know it , the new furnace heating duct on the bottom is
> on
> front . Sooo My furnace is over the wheel well , and used to rest on the
> ductwork
> going to the back of the furnace . Which means that I have to take the cabinet
> back
> out , remove the old duct , fabricate a new duct, Which aint gonna be easy cause
> it
> goes from 10.5 to 8 inches ,and 3.5 to three and is tipped forward about 2
> inches .
> Better make it out of a pizza box first . Back to my old shop to use the brake ,
> 20
> minutes each way , pity I was just there the other day using the jump shear . Oh
> yea
> , and weld a base of angle alum. cause it wont sit on the old duct anymore .
> I`d really like to go camping in this thing , I got a big trip planned . I
> got
> lots more to do yet ....without these hinderances.
>
> Just venting ,
> Chris 63 cloud
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 23:27:56 -0400
From: John Sellers <sellersj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Dump Valve in 1960 Pacer - Followup
Gang,
About a month ago I posted some questions about overhauling the leaky
sewage dump valve on my 1960 Pacer. Thanks to all of you that responded
on- and off-list.
I managed to fix the valve, so I thought I might document my experience
for the archives. This post will be rather lengthy, but may save
trouble for anyone who comes across a similar valve.
Sewage holding tanks were apparently a new thing in 1960. Ed Emerick's
1959 Traveler, for example, didn't _have_ a black tank. Airstream must
not have settled on a standardized dump valve yet; I have never heard of
another one like they used in our Pacer. (Although the same valve might
turn up in some other 1960 models.)
The dump valve in our Pacer is a two inch bronze "wedge gate valve". In
other words a gate valve with a tapered gate that wedges in between two
mating seats in the valve body. The seal is metal-to-metal; there are
no gaskets or O-rings other than the packing around the valve stem.
In my first post I noted that the valve seemed to be in good shape, no
external leakage or corrosion, but I had unscrewed the valve bonnet but
couldn't get the gate out. The valve would neither close nor open all
the way.
First, the secret of getting the valve apart. The valve is operated by
the usual push-pull aluminum T-handle sticking out the side of the belly
pan. The T-handle appeared to be permanently affixed to the valve stem;
no clips, pins or setscrews in sight. It dawned on me that the valve
stem might _unscrew_ from the gate if the square-shank T-handle was free
to turn. The T-handle sticks through a rectangular hole in a little
aluminum plate riveted to the belly pan. Drilling out the rivets to
free the plate uncovered a larger round hole in the belly pan, leaving
the T-handle free to turn. Turning the T-handle unscrewed the stem from
the gate, allowing the valve stem and bonnet to be removed. (It's a
left-handed thread.)
With these parts out of the way I could see the gate, although I still
couldn't see why it was jamming in the valve. But it looked like it was
supposed to come out. At that point I adopted an Attitude--frequently
necessary in dealing with old plumbing fixtures. Specifically, "THAT
@#$% GATE IS COMING OUT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER!"
Between the Attitude and a liberal dousing with Kroil, the gate came out
with relatively little force. The problem was immediately obvious. The
gate is a hollow bronze casting, relatively thick; about a half an inch
at the inner edge and an inch at the outer edge. At some point water
had gotten into it and frozen. The casting was bulged and actually
cracked in one place.
As bad as it looked, the gate casting was repairable, owing to the
wonderful malleability and solderability of bronze. First I boiled the
part in a stiff detergent solution to remove accumulated filth, followed
by a short soak in muriatic acid to brighten it up. Then I restored the
mating surfaces to approximate flatness by careful hammering and filing,
testing frequently against a surface plate with hi-spot blue. By the
time the surfaces were reasonably flat the crack had closed up, so I
filled it with solder.
Next I took the gate and the hi-spot blue out to the trailer and
hammered and filed the gate surfaces some more to fit them to the seats,
which, after all they had been through, were probably not all that flat
either. I was pleasantly surprised to achieve metal-to-metal contact
about 80% of the way around both seats. (Not unexpectedly, the gap on
both seats was where I had dragged the swollen gate over them.)
Even after 44 years the valve bonnet had a lot of grease in it and I
began to suspect that the grease was what was supposed to make the whole
thing work. An Internet search on "gate valve" AND "grease" hit pay
dirt. It turns out that some metal-to-metal wedge gate valves use a
specially-formulated sealant/grease to both seal and lubricate the
valve. The oil industry must use a lot of them because the distributors
selling valve sealants were all in oil country.
I settled on Nordstrom 386 sealant, which is recommended for water and
sewage service. I bought some from A & J fittings, www.ajfittings.com ,
877-453-4333 in Houston, Texas, who were friendly, helpful, took charge
cards, and had the stuff in stock. The smallest quantity I could buy
was a six-pack of grease gun packs--more than a lifetime supply for one
Airstream--but, I figured, cheap enough if it solved the problem.
When I received the Nordstrom 386 sealant I reassembled the valve,
packing the gate casting full before installing it and then filling the
valve bonnet before I screwed it down. That sealant is about the
consistency of peanut butter, and just as sticky. And it works great!
I could scarcely believe it when I filled the black tank with water and
the valve didn't leak a drop!
Since then I have filled and dumped the black tank several times and the
dump valve continues to be leak free. I suspect to keep it that way it
will be necessary to unscrew the valve bonnet once a year or so and
stuff in some more sealant. Aside from that slight need for
maintenance, the 1960-model dump valve seems to work pretty well.
Best,
John Sellers
WBCCI/VAC #1587
1960 Pacer
Dayton, Ohio
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:39:47 -0700
From: "Roger Hightower" <rwhigh@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Dump Valve in 1960 Pacer - Followup
Good work, John. It's always great to hear a success story.
Roger
Roger Hightower, WBCCI #4165, VAC
1975 31' Sovereign
2002 Ford F-250 PSD
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 22:00:07 -0600
From: Robert Davis <rob-iod@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Dump Valve in 1960 Pacer - Followup
John,
Is it possible to post a link to pictures (if available)?
Rob Davis
'64 GlobeTrotter
John Sellers wrote:
>I managed to fix the valve, so I thought I might document my experience
>for the archives.
------------------------------
End of VAL Digest V1 #336
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