VAL Digest V1 #241

VAL Digest            Saturday, May 8 2004            Volume 01 : Number 241




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Topics in Today's Digest:

[VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...
Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...
Re: [VAL] electrical woes
Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...
Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...
Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my  response...
Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...
Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...
Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my  response...
Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...
Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...
Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...
RE: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...
[VAL] trailer sales
Re: [VAL] trailer sales
Re: [VAL] trailer sales
FW: [VAL] trailer sales

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 23:15:12 -0700
From: "Richard        McFarland" <estatewagons@xxxxxxxxxx.att.net>
Subject: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...

Dr. J - I am not quite sure what you are saying in your response to my
response to the successful solution to Scott's wiring problem....

In fact...my response was meant as a thank you to everyone involved -
for how interesting it was to follow along as Scott's question was answered.

And...it brought to my mind - how interesting it would be to have reference
photos and material on file - as to what owners find when they open their
Airstreams up for restoration.

I thought it would be interesting to have photos to look at - of Airstreams
that
have been opened up - their interiors removed - the inside skins removed -
so that the frames showed...so that various construction methods over the
years were highlighted as a "general" reference.  Just like the exterior
photos
of Airstreams are helpful when trying to track down "mysteries" as to what
changes may have happened when - and at which factory etc.  With Airstreams
we all know that there were so many "running changes" over the years...that
it
is hard to say for sure when certain things changed...etc....so sometimes
all
we have is a general idea...and then there are the exceptions to the rule.

I thought it could be of help - in general to folks that are preparing to
tear into
an old Airstream - and want a "general" idea of what they might
find...though
as I stated above...with Airstreams...there are not guarantees.

THAT is what I was talking about in terms of mysteries.  Colin gave us a
great idea of what he saw on "his" trailer - as a result of taking the
interior
panels off.

My compliments to everyone - that was the point of my message - and I
will refrain from using my sense of humor and general good spirit in the
future!

RL - a fan of Perry Mason and Erle Stanley Gardner (who was an
avid trailerite himself)  (really)


 >
> Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 08:13:12 -0500
> From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> Subject: Re: [VAL] Scott's Shorted Light Bulb - a Perry Mason episode!
>
> I don't read mysteries, not even Sherlock Holmes. The authors ALWAYS
> know in the back of their mind as they drop hints of evidence what the
> final answer will be so they don't always have to include all the
> detectable and needed evidence. Real world electrical and fire mysteries
> are nearly always more complex and more of a challenge to solve.
>
> Gerald J.
> - -- 
> Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
> Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 09:08:25 -0500
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...

Richard, I'm just saying that the REAL world is more complex and
mysteries are often harder to solve than fictional mysteries. Fiction
writers know their outcome as they give out the clues, though being
fiction writers sometimes their clues are not truly scientifically
consistent with their final outcome. A. Conan Doyle did express a useful
principle however, "Examine all possible causes, eliminate all that
aren't supported by evidence, what remains however unusual must be the
answer."

And shorted lamps are very unusual, but possible.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 09:44:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Toby Folwick <toby_folwick@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] electrical woes

NOW I'm *really* looking forward to doing electrical. 
Scott - I had the same issue, but it didn't effect the
running lights, so I never fixed it, just pulled it
into the garage and started tearing out cabinets.

Toby



	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs  
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 12:48:01 -0400
From: "Tom" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...

Sounds to me like this trailer lighting is sort of like Christmas lights on
a tree -- one goes out and everything downstream goes out as well.

The filament in the bulb acted as a switch then and STOPPED any current past
that point?

If that's the case maybe it's time to rewire that trailer -- the correct,
safe way.

Tom

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my
response...


> Richard, I'm just saying that the REAL world is more complex and
> mysteries are often harder to solve than fictional mysteries. Fiction
> writers know their outcome as they give out the clues, though being
> fiction writers sometimes their clues are not truly scientifically
> consistent with their final outcome. A. Conan Doyle did express a useful
> principle however, "Examine all possible causes, eliminate all that
> aren't supported by evidence, what remains however unusual must be the
> answer."
>
> And shorted lamps are very unusual, but possible.
>
> Gerald J.
> -- 
> Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
> Reproduction by permission only.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 11:09:54 -0500
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...

No, it wasn't like series string Christmas tree lights. The lamp
filament broke and a piece of it fell across the lead wires in the lamp
and that short piece of filament drew so much current it tripped the
breaker on that circuit. Which killed the whole circuit.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 13:58:25 -0400
From: "Scott Scheuermann" <s.l.scheuermann@xxxxxxxxxx.att.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my  response...

Tom, that is not what happened. The bulb filament made contact inside the
bulb and shorted. The breaker did its job by tripping the circuit. I only
have two circuits on the trailer, so half the electricity was disabled.

Scott

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my
response...


> Sounds to me like this trailer lighting is sort of like Christmas lights
on
> a tree -- one goes out and everything downstream goes out as well.
>
> The filament in the bulb acted as a switch then and STOPPED any current
past
> that point?
>
> If that's the case maybe it's time to rewire that trailer -- the correct,
> safe way.
>
> Tom
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 10:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my
> response...
>
>
> > Richard, I'm just saying that the REAL world is more complex and
> > mysteries are often harder to solve than fictional mysteries. Fiction
> > writers know their outcome as they give out the clues, though being
> > fiction writers sometimes their clues are not truly scientifically
> > consistent with their final outcome. A. Conan Doyle did express a useful
> > principle however, "Examine all possible causes, eliminate all that
> > aren't supported by evidence, what remains however unusual must be the
> > answer."
> >
> > And shorted lamps are very unusual, but possible.
> >
> > Gerald J.
> > -- 
> > Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
> > Reproduction by permission only.
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
> >
> > To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> > http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 15:58:37 -0400
From: "Tom" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...

I'm still confused here, Scott.

Why did a bulb filament cause half your trailer to stop working?  I can see
that bulb not working in that socket but ... half the trailer on the fritz
because of a bulb filament?

Now, if your trailer has a separate circuit for one bulb, then I can
understand.  I doubt this is the case.  Is it?

Tom

> Tom, that is not what happened. The bulb filament made contact inside the
> bulb and shorted. The breaker did its job by tripping the circuit. I only
> have two circuits on the trailer, so half the electricity was disabled.
> Scott

> > Sounds to me like this trailer lighting is sort of like Christmas lights
> on
> > a tree -- one goes out and everything downstream goes out as well.
> >
> > The filament in the bulb acted as a switch then and STOPPED any current
> past
> > that point?
> >
> > If that's the case maybe it's time to rewire that trailer -- the
correct,
> > safe way.
> >
> > Tom

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 16:02:43 -0400
From: "Tom" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...

How unusual is that?

Tom

> No, it wasn't like series string Christmas tree lights. The lamp
> filament broke and a piece of it fell across the lead wires in the lamp
> and that short piece of filament drew so much current it tripped the
> breaker on that circuit. Which killed the whole circuit.
> 
> Gerald J.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 18:09:34 -0400
From: "Scott Scheuermann" <s.l.scheuermann@xxxxxxxxxx.att.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my  response...

Tom, you don't understand. The filament caused a short. The bulb didn't just
burn out. Once I removed the bulb all was well. Visualize your home. All of
a sudden one of the circuits is dead. That is what happened, the cause was
not a burned out bulb but a shorted out bulb.

Scott
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my
response...


> How unusual is that?
>
> Tom
>
> > No, it wasn't like series string Christmas tree lights. The lamp
> > filament broke and a piece of it fell across the lead wires in the lamp
> > and that short piece of filament drew so much current it tripped the
> > breaker on that circuit. Which killed the whole circuit.
> >
> > Gerald J.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 17:26:11 -0500
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...

Tom, there may still be a need for a new breaker as breakers tend to
become more sensitive with age, however the lamp filament is an
obnoxious load when its full length.

The cold resistance of tungsten is about 15 times lower than the hot
resistance. So a 100 watt lamp that draws 0.8 amps hot draws 8 amps the
instant its turned on. That's why switches rated for lamps have a T
rating. Else they'd weld from that increased current. Now take that
filament and break it and let a piece of it fall so there's only say 10%
of its normal length between the wire leads. That means its going to
draw 100 times its normal current with full voltage applied, 80 amps.
That's enough to trip the breaker and shut down the entire circuit.

Its not very common for a lamp to fail nearly shorted, but it can happen
and did for Scott. Usually when that happens for me, there's a bright
flash as the remains of the tungsten filament get evaporated. It all
depends on how much of the filament gets energized after it has fallen
on the leads.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 19:50:20 -0400
From: "Tom" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...

I did not know all that.  Thanks for the lesson.

Tom

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my
response...


> Tom, there may still be a need for a new breaker as breakers tend to
> become more sensitive with age, however the lamp filament is an
> obnoxious load when its full length.
>
> The cold resistance of tungsten is about 15 times lower than the hot
> resistance. So a 100 watt lamp that draws 0.8 amps hot draws 8 amps the
> instant its turned on. That's why switches rated for lamps have a T
> rating. Else they'd weld from that increased current. Now take that
> filament and break it and let a piece of it fall so there's only say 10%
> of its normal length between the wire leads. That means its going to
> draw 100 times its normal current with full voltage applied, 80 amps.
> That's enough to trip the breaker and shut down the entire circuit.
>
> Its not very common for a lamp to fail nearly shorted, but it can happen
> and did for Scott. Usually when that happens for me, there's a bright
> flash as the remains of the tungsten filament get evaporated. It all
> depends on how much of the filament gets energized after it has fallen
> on the leads.
>
> Gerald J.
> -- 
> Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
> Reproduction by permission only.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 20:18:01 -0400
From: "Tom" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...

I understand now from what you and Gerald said.  Thanks.

Tom

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Scheuermann" <s.l.scheuermann@xxxxxxxxxx.att.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my
response...


> Tom, you don't understand. The filament caused a short. The bulb didn't
just
> burn out. Once I removed the bulb all was well. Visualize your home. All
of
> a sudden one of the circuits is dead. That is what happened, the cause was
> not a burned out bulb but a shorted out bulb.
>
> Scott
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Tom" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
> To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
> Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 4:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my
> response...
>
>
> > How unusual is that?
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > > No, it wasn't like series string Christmas tree lights. The lamp
> > > filament broke and a piece of it fell across the lead wires in the
lamp
> > > and that short piece of filament drew so much current it tripped the
> > > breaker on that circuit. Which killed the whole circuit.
> > >
> > > Gerald J.
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
> >
> > To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> > http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 21:33:22 -0400
From: "eemerick" <eemerick@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my response...

Hello All,
All I have to say is "WOW". I have to also say I just learned something
that I don't think that I would have learned anywhere but on this list.
I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed and electricity really freaks me
out but the participants on this list have help me start to over come my
electro phobia!
Ed
WBCCI/VAC 4425
68 Sovereign 
59 Traveler (new wiring front to back, inside and out thanks to those of
you who help those of use who don't have a clew)

- -----Original Message-----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com
[mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Gerald N.
Johnson, electrical engineer
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 6:26 PM
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] re: Scott's wiring problem - Dr. J's response to my
response...


Tom, there may still be a need for a new breaker as breakers tend to
become more sensitive with age, however the lamp filament is an
obnoxious load when its full length.

The cold resistance of tungsten is about 15 times lower than the hot
resistance. So a 100 watt lamp that draws 0.8 amps hot draws 8 amps the
instant its turned on. That's why switches rated for lamps have a T
rating. Else they'd weld from that increased current. Now take that
filament and break it and let a piece of it fall so there's only say 10%
of its normal length between the wire leads. That means its going to
draw 100 times its normal current with full voltage applied, 80 amps.
That's enough to trip the breaker and shut down the entire circuit.

Its not very common for a lamp to fail nearly shorted, but it can happen
and did for Scott. Usually when that happens for me, there's a bright
flash as the remains of the tungsten filament get evaporated. It all
depends on how much of the filament gets energized after it has fallen
on the leads.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------
When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text

To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 23:10:43 EDT
From: M1492@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] trailer sales

has anyone sold a as on the vac classaified ? mine has been on for a time
 & not even a call, i need somethig smaller

mark
22' as safari double

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 21:29:55 -0600
From: Charlie/Betty Burke <cbburke@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] trailer sales

Mark,

I recently sold my '75 Argosy on the VAC classified. We had already uploaded
pictures to our web site. So with a link to the pic's it took 6 hours to get
a deposit and 6 days to sell it. Had another buyer waiting if the first fell
through. Good results

Also listed a '74 Airstream for a club member and they sold theirs in less
than 2 weeks, after nearly a year of trying locally.

Charlie

M1492@xxxxxxxxxx.com wrote:

> has anyone sold a as on the vac classaified ? mine has been on for a time
>  & not even a call, i need somethig smaller
>
> mark
> 22' as safari double
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 00:10:16 -0500
From: <Balloon@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] trailer sales

Mark,

Sold a 63 Globe last year off the VAC. Had a bunch of emails of people
waisting my time. The first guy that made the effort got a great trailer for
4K.  I think the key is good pictures! If you look at the trailers that sell
on eBay for the most money, they have the best pictures of the trailer.

Paul Waddell
WBCCI/VAC/WDCU 1270
66 Overlander
66 Safari


> has anyone sold a as on the vac classaified ?
> mark
> 22' as safari double
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 23:22:09 -0500
From: Kevin D Allen <overlander64@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: FW: [VAL] trailer sales

Kevin D. Allen
1964 Overlander International/1999 GMC K2500 Suburban
1978 Argosy Minuet
1975 Cadillac Convertible (towcar in-training)
WBCCI/VAC #6359
 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kevin D. Allen [mailto:overlander64@xxxxxxxxxx.net] 
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 9:40 PM
To: 'valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com'
Subject: RE: [VAL] trailer sales

Greetings Mark!

I haven't sold a trailer through the VAC classifieds, but I did buy one
through the classifieds.  It has been about two years ago, and was just
a short time after the WBCCI International Rally - - the '78 Minuet was
advertised about 45 minutes before I happened on the advertisement - -
36-hours later I was making a deposit on the coach and less than a week
later, I towed the coach home.

Kevin D. Allen
1964 Overlander International/1999 GMC K2500 Suburban (7400 VORTEC/4.10
Differential)
1978 Argosy Minuet
1975 Cadillac Convertible (8.2 Liter V8/2.70 Final Drive)
WBCCI/VAC/Free Wheelers #6359
 

- -----Original Message-----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com
[mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com] On Behalf Of M1492@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 9:11 PM
To: VAList@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] trailer sales

has anyone sold a as on the vac classaified ? mine has been on for a
time
 & not even a call, i need somethig smaller

mark
22' as safari double

------------------------------

End of VAL Digest V1 #241
*************************


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