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VAL Digest V1 #191



VAL Digest          Thursday, March 18 2004          Volume 01 : Number 191




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Topics in Today's Digest:

[VAL] NO WATER!!!!
Re: [VAL] Hoo, boy!   RE: 1956 Caravanner Skin Care
Re: [VAL] NO WATER!!!!
Re: [VAL] NO WATER!!!!
Re: [VAL] NO WATER!!!!
Re: [VAL] Hello everyone!
[VAL] Re: VAL jacking a single axel with springs
Re: [VAL] 1956 Caravanner Skin Care
Re: [VAL] Sealing seams internally
[VAL] RE: 1956 Caravenner Skin Care
Re: [VAL] NO WATER!!!!
Re: [VAL] Hoo, boy!   RE: 1956 Caravanner Skin Care
[VAL] Napier Stripper
Re: [VAL] Hoo, boy!   RE: 1956 Caravanner Skin Care
[VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #190
Re: [VAL] Sealing seams internally
[VAL] Olympic rivets - the rest of the story ;)
Re: [VAL] Hoo, boy!   RE: 1956 Caravanner Skin Care
Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #190
[VAL] Ken re:solid rivets vs Olympic rivets
Re: [VAL] Ken re:solid rivets vs Olympic rivets
[VAL] Rock Shields
Re: [VAL] Ken re:solid rivets vs Olympic rivets
[VAL] refrigerator removal
[VAL] Anyone in the Denver area?
Re: [VAL] Ken re:solid rivets vs Olympic rivets
Re: [VAL] Sealing seams internally
Re: [VAL] Hello everyone!
Re: [VAL] Hello everyone!
Re: [VAL] Hoo, boy!   RE: 1956 Caravanner Skin Care
Re: [VAL] "Scott Fling--possible Airstream available"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:05:46 -0600
From: Cheyanne & Randy <bayoubuddies@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] NO WATER!!!!

Our 1977 Overlander was delivered today, and for some reason we can't 
get the water to come into the trailer.  We hooked it up ( we are in an 
RV park) just like we had our previous trailer, but no water.  Any 
ideas?  I hope it is just something stupid we are overlooking.  Also, 
there are 2 splits in the copper pipes, which will cause leaks if we 
ever do get the water inside.  Does anyone have experience repairing 
copper pipe?  Thanks in advance.

Cheyanne

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:25:14 -0500
From: "Mr. Joy H. Hansen" <joytbrew@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Hoo, boy!   RE: 1956 Caravanner Skin Care

Hi Jim,

Well I don't know, but .  .  . if Olympic rivets are designed for aircraft
repair .  .  .  I can agree that any rivet improperly installed can leak.
Olympic rivets can be pulled too tight in some installations.  I've
installed dozens of these in the roof of my Argosy, BUT, I did use vulkem
along with the gasket.  Sure used a lot of them in my '69 Safari to replace
Airstream buck rivets that missed the underneath panel.  All that held the
seam was the glue (tape).  Anyway, I remain properly defamed! :)

Sometimes I'd rather be CAS shooting where I get lots more laughs.  Got  new
slicked up Norinco 1897 pump and 1887 lever 12 gauge coming in from Coyote
Cap shortly.  And a new Dillon 550 press.  :)  Believe it or not, I reload
in the Argosy when I'm traveling.

                                                 Regards, '69 Safari, Joy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 06:07:57 -0500
From: "Mr. Joy H. Hansen" <joytbrew@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] NO WATER!!!!

Hi Cheyanne,

I've had a bit of experience with replacing frozen copper water pipes in an
'74 Argosy.  I can tell you that the splits that you see are only the
beginning of problems.  Take the commode for instance.  Both the valve and a
reservoir in the commode are damaged by freezing as they are plastic.  The
water pump doesn't like to be frozen!  The pipes to the shower/tub are
especially prone to break from freezing.  I suspect that frozen gate valves
may shortened life.  Some poorly made sweat connections will leak/fail
completely.  And finally, much of the pipe will be swelled and replacement
is out of the question as nothing fits new copper pipe or sweat fittings.

You can tell from my experiences that frozen pipes are no small or
inexpensive repair in an Airstream.  I prefer a mix of PEX replacement pipes
and some Quest connectors.  Personally, I fill all lines with RV antifreeze
even though my lines are all PEX.  That pesky commode .  .  . Most likely, I
would walk from a purchase that had freeze damage unless it was a near
give-away - too much work.  BTW, I use a special adapter to connect to the
intake filter of the water pump to fill the system with RV antifreeze.  Just
a matter of opening and closing valves until the RV antifreeze pours
through.  This fills the traps and into the gray water holding tank.  The
black water tank is protected with the tank treatment chemicals.  Of course,
the potable water tank must be drained before disconnecting it from the
supply pump.

Without direct experience with a '77, my '69 and '74 had pressure limiter
and back flow restrictors in the water lines.  Either could be damaged by
freezing and might not open as designed.  Was the cap left off the shore
water connector such that mud dabbers filled the line with mud?  Or spider
web nests?

A lot more than you asked and understand that it's just my opinion and I'll
stick by it!

                                                Regards,  '69 Safari, Joy


- ----- Original Message ----- 

Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 1:05 AM
Subject: [VAL] NO WATER!!!!


> Our 1977 Overlander was delivered today, and for some reason we can't
> get the water to come into the trailer.  We hooked it up ( we are in an
> RV park) just like we had our previous trailer, but no water.  Any
> ideas?  I hope it is just something stupid we are overlooking.  Also,
> there are 2 splits in the copper pipes, which will cause leaks if we
> ever do get the water inside.  Does anyone have experience repairing
> copper pipe?  Thanks in advance.
>
> Cheyanne

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:44:46 EST
From: JAuman2346@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] NO WATER!!!!

I had the same problem with my 75 25' trailer. The pressure valve was located 
behind the shower on the inside rear of the trailer. It was completely 
plugged with dirt and completely stopped up. There was absolutely no way to get to 
the valve to clean it. I had to completely take the shower and walls of the 
bathroom apart to get the pressure value out. It was a real job. I didn't not 
replace the pressure valve in the same location. As stated in another message the 
copper lines are probably swollen. You just can't cut out the split and 
replace because the necessary fittings won't fit the swollen copper pipes. I 
replaced my with copper but it was a real job. I had to replace all the copper 
tubing all the way up to the kitchen sink. Probably easier to use plastic. Its a 
real job to fit. jauman2346@xxxxxxxxxx.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:50:44 -0500
From: gillguy@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] NO WATER!!!!

    Cheyanne
    Take a good look at your water lines.
    Draw a diagram if necessary.
    Pay close attention to all the fittings.
    Then make a list of all the stuff needed to replace it.
    I would recommend PEX tubing with compression fittings.
    Not the cheapest, but easiest to fix with just a pocket knife and a union.

Bobby
Valdosta, GA
USAF Retired
Aircraft Structures
  ----- Original Message -----
  Wrom: WTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJPHSCRTN
  To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com<mailto:valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
  Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 1:05 AM
  Subject: [VAL] NO WATER!!!!


  Our 1977 Overlander was delivered today, and for some reason we can't
  get the water to come into the trailer.  We hooked it up ( we are in an
  RV park) just like we had our previous trailer, but no water.  Any
  ideas?  I hope it is just something stupid we are overlooking.  Also,
  there are 2 splits in the copper pipes, which will cause leaks if we
  ever do get the water inside.  Does anyone have experience repairing
  copper pipe?  Thanks in advance.

  Cheyanne

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:54:18 -0500
From: gillguy@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] Hello everyone!

Scott
To bad your not in Georgia, or lucky for me.
There is an estate sale Sat March 20 and they have a '78 Airstream 29 footer.
I hope to have another in the yard by Sat. evening.
Look good sitting next to the '73 Ambassador.

Bobby
Valdosta, GA
  ----- Original Message -----
  Wrom: JEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYL
  To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com<mailto:valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
  Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 3:14 PM
  Subject: [VAL] Hello everyone!


  I just joined the list. My name is Scott Fling and I am currently searching
  for a tandem axle Airstream to restore.
  If anyone could help me locate a trailer I would
  appreciate it. The reason for
  the tandem is that I have three young daughters and I will need a unit of
  some size to be able to
  squeeze us all in. Thanks.

  Scott

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:00:58 -0500
From: "Scott Scheuermann" <s.l.scheuermann@xxxxxxxxxx.att.net>
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL jacking a single axel with springs

My '60 also has the spring axel and the 4" square aluminum patch to mark
where to lift the trailer.

Look for a patch just behind the wheel where the frame should be. Thats the
place to jack it.

Scott
- ----------------------
> What is the best position to place the jack when changing a tire on a
single
> axle Airstream?
- ----------------------
> My manual for the '69 Safari single axle says to place the jack under the
> main frame rail.  There's usually a 4" square aluminum plate riveted to
the
> belly in the proper location.  I believe that the position is just to the
> rear of the tire, quite close to the end of the axle mounting
plate......Then,
> your post seems to indicate that you have a pre-torsion (spring) axle
unit?
> The frame at the rear end of the spring should be strong enough to lift
the
> trailer without damage.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:24:00 -0700
From: Charlie/Betty Burke <cbburke@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 1956 Caravanner Skin Care

Kevin,

Vulkem is the sealer of choice. The black stuff predates Vulkem. The best
they could get at the time. Over the years I have seen 35+ year old Vulkem
that was as good as new. The only thing that seems to bother Vulkem is sun
light. A close look at any movies or photo's of Airstream construction will
show that they apply a heavy coat of sealant on the inside of the exterior
skin at all seams and other penetrations.

Charlie

Kevin Chop wrote:

> To whom that may have some insight,
>
> With the interior skin removed, I would like to re-seal the seams from
> the inside.  The existing black sealer is failing (flaking off).  What
> is recommended to re-seal the seams?  I was considering Vulkem? Or will
> Vulkem fail under heat?
>
> Thanks
>
> Kevin & Valerie Chop
> #5585
>
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>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 07:35:03 -0700
From: Charlie/Betty Burke <cbburke@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Sealing seams internally

True,

Airstream does now use SikaFlex. The Ohio EPA got on them about airborne
pollutants from the Vulkem. They would have preferred to continue using Vulkem.
SikaFlex is supposed to do the job, but the jury is still out on it's longevity
compared to Vulkem.
Some form of internal sealant has almost always been applied during
construction. The riveted metal to metal joint does not have a sealant applied
to it and is not considered water tight. The natural movement of the metal would
break any such seal. The interior sealant is the primary water tight seal.
Vulkem, once applied and set is an extremely flexible, durable seal.

Charlie

Anthony Slocock wrote:

> I'll chime in here as I have not seen anyone answer this yet.
>
> Airstream use Sikaflex 221 internally, to seal all sheet joints, around
> light fittings, window/ roof vents etc. before the trailers go in the water
> test area.  It is liberally applied as additional protection against
> leakage - a very sensible practice in my view, IF you happen to have the
> inner skin and insulation competely removed during a rebuild.  The 221
> product comes in cartridges like any mastic, although Airstream buy it in
> bulk and its applied using a plastic spatula (I think).  You can buy it in
> single tubes from Airstream, in bulk from a supplier like JPC Specialities
> in Philadelphia (800 220 4404), or your local hardware specialist no doubt.
> For more info, the technical team at Sika Corporation are very helpful - 248
> 577 0020.
>
> Anthony Slocock
> eurostream.co.uk
>
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>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 09:40:39 -0500
From: "Deborah Bede" <stillwaterstudio@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] RE: 1956 Caravenner Skin Care

Hi Tom:

The interior sealant on my trailer is the sprayed on type described by
Roger, it's very clear that it was a separate application applied by
sprayer.  It's black and quite brittle.  I can see where water has entered
the trailer because there are obvious areas of aluminum oxide corrosion
associated with most of the roof seams, under the windows, inside the screws
holding the awning rail, below the marker lights, etc. etc.  While I plan to
do my very best sealing the seams from the outside, it only makes sense to
me to seal them from the inside as well to make my trailer as tight as
possible.

I am using the aluminum cleaner and brass brush on the recommendation of a
colleague of mine who is responsible for the care of all of the cars,
airplanes, trains etc at a major museum.  Preservation of metal is what he
does for a living, and I have a high opinion of his expertise.

Deborah
1955 Bubble

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 10:17:40 -0500
From: William Jacobs <bjacobs1@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] NO WATER!!!!

Cheyanne & Randy wrote:

> Also, there are 2 splits in the copper pipes, which will cause leaks 
> if we ever do get the water inside. 

I have in the past, taken a copper pipe coupling and split it in half  
length wise, on the axis of rotation so to speak  and placed it over the 
split with a gasket made from an old inter tube and then clamp it down 
with 2 hose clamps.  It worked for over 20 years.

bill
25 ft Trade Wind

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 08:57:57 -0800
From: "Gary Quamen" <g_quamen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Hoo, boy!   RE: 1956 Caravanner Skin Care

> Joy, I've heard that the attached gasket should be discarded and not uses
> because it's said that they dry out and then leak. I've always been told
to
> use the bare rivet with a dab of Vulkem on the stem. I think it is
Charlie's
> opinion I'm repeating.
>
> Jim Greene
> ' 68 Tradewind

Hey Jim:

You know what opinions are like and here's mine.

That gasket is a teeny o-ring made out of EPDM which is one of the most
durable materials made.  When the rivet head is pulled down, the gasket
smashes down very flat and forms itself to the trailer skin and the
underside of the rivet head.  The trouble is that you can still see it,
albeit very slightly.  I don't use the gasket where you can readily see the
rivets.  On the roof, or other places out of sight, I do use the gasket and
am sure that it will last as long or longer than "little dab of Vulkem" and
much easier to use.  In visible areas the lack of the gasket (with Vulkem or
otherwise) makes the rivet heads blend in with the skin.

Zat make any sense?

GQ '67 Safari
4082 in CA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:59:48 -0800
From: "chyde" <chyde@primelink1.net>
Subject: [VAL] Napier Stripper

I just went into a local ICI paint store and asked about Napier Stripper
that everyone seems to be talking about to remove clearcoat. Apparently
Napier makes this product for ICI Devoe High Performance Coatings and is
labeled "Hydrostrip 502". One gallon cost $34.95. The instructions say it's
waterbased and can be washed off with a pressure washer so it certainly
sounds like the same thing. Just thought everyone might want another
alternative.
Colin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:31:44 -0500
From: "Tom" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Hoo, boy!   RE: 1956 Caravanner Skin Care

Olympic rivets are *not* designed for aircraft repair.  The Olympic rivets
appear to be more likely designed for *sheetrock* rather than *sheet metal*,
aluminum.

If you've ever seen how the Olympic rivets work, how they pull and compress
they really DO look like those fasteners used on gypsum wallboard.  I do not
like them for repairs on *my* Airstream trailers, I know they are inferior
to the original solid fasteners but that's a no-brainer.

However, Olympic rivets are *cheaper* than other really good fasteners such
as the Cherry Max and Cherry-Lok rivets - both of which you need a special
pulling gun to do the job right.  You can pull some of the very small
diameter Cherry Max and Cherry-Lok rivets with a very good hand riveter but
the jaws will most likely not last a very long time because they were not
designed to pull these type fasteners.

I know I'm in the minority on this rivet issue so there is no reason to
lambaste me here - do so in private if you feel you must and we will discuss
it from there off the list.  Solid fasteners are best and used correctly
they offer you the best of both worlds - they are light in weight and very
strong.  If you can't use a solid rivet you should go with a blind
fastener - if you really need to or you could go with a very strong nut and
bolt made out of stainless steel.  I know, I'm getting too technical here
but it's the way I do things differently than the Airstream factory you see.

In my eyes there are right ways and wrong ways and cheap ways to fix things.
I choose to do the very best repair work on my two Airstream travel trailers
and that calls for using what I feel is the correct hardware.  I don't go
cheap - the cheapest tools are the most expensive *because* you end up
buying them over and over and over.  The same can be said for using cheap
repair parts.

Let me ask you this:

    Why on Earth would anyone want to use cheap parts on such an expensive
travel trailer like our Airstreams?  Do it right the first time if you need
to make a repair and it will last you as long as you own the trailer.  I
advocate repairs that are at least as strong or stronger than the original
and that is why when I fix something it stays fixed for me.  Just the way I
do things I guess.

Tom
WBCCI 5303


From: "Mr. Joy H. Hansen" <joytbrew@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> Well I don't know, but .  .  . if Olympic rivets are designed for aircraft
> repair .  .  .  Joy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:01:02 EST
From: Inlandrv@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #190

OLYMPIC RIVETS.


Using olympic rivets "with washers" is foolish at best.

It's is nothing more than a "VERY SHORT TERM" method of replacing an exterior 
buck rivet, and "HOPE" is doesn't leak.

There are two inherent problems with the washer type olympic rivet. 

The first is that the neoprene washer will age out (the hotter the weather, 
the faster), plus the heat from the metal. When the washer is aged out, it will 
crack which gives you a nice water leak.

The second is that because of the washer barrier, the sheet metal "WILL NOT" 
hold together as tight as a washerless rivet or buck rivet.

Therefore we highly discourage the use of a washer type olympic rivet on any 
Airstream product.

Additionally, they cost more and ultimately, "FAIL."

If it takes more time to do the job "right" then so be it. Adding vulkem 
sealer underneath the head of a replacement olympic rivet, actually is superior to 
the original construction, in that each replaced rivet is sealed underneath 
the rivet head.

Hopefully, this ends the confusion and stops, in it's tracks, an illusion of 
using a superior part, when if fact it is "inferior." 

A washer type olympic rivet therefore is a stop gap and short lived method of 
repair.

Andy
Inland RV Center, Inc.
The worlds largest supplier of Airstream vintage parts.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:02:13 -0500
From: "Tom" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Sealing seams internally

Hi Charlie,

Aircraft have been using sheetmetal that overlaps a minimum of at least two
rows of fasteners since they've been using aluminum to build them if it is a
structural part.  Seams on aircraft are sealed on the overlapped areas and
not the entire area skin area as you've described below.  Aircraft go
through much more physically than our travel trailers ever would - aircraft
actually *grow* in length and width at altitude which our Airstreams never
do even at sea-level.  It is very difficult for me to believe that Airstream
trailers weaken with age - they are priced from the beginning high enough so
that this should NEVER happen in my book.  I've yet to see enough torsion
and flexing to break a properly sealed joint on an Airstream short of
wrecking the trailer and shredding the metal.

I assume (I hate to use that word) that Airstream is putting sealer all over
the entire interior skin for several reasons the first of which is it is
F-A-S-T and cheaper to do rather than the way I feel is the only correct
method of sealing the joints.  Seal the joints, you have a water-tight
application that will last and you will have a clean area on the backside of
the exterior metal.  It is no wonder you can't find a leak - it could be
ANYWHERE due to the fact that water might be running down the INSIDE of this
skin sealer they use!

Maybe Airstream needs to rethink it's method of construction?  A slightly
wider/longer piece of aluminum would make allowance for a double row of
fasteners *everywhere* there is now a single row - then they could just seal
the overlapped metal rather than wasting material by trying to waterproof
plain metal skin.

You know if Airstream made their trailers like aircraft that they used to be
so fond of saying, there would be no need to treat the backside of the
exterior skin like they do.  Then again the sales of Vulkem would drop
dramatically if you didn't *need* to redo all the exterior seams because the
overlapped metal would have had sealant in place from the very beginning
like I would like to see them do.

Due to the fact that I have now learned that Airstream is NOT sealing
overlapped metal skins I now know the reason why it's a *complete waste of
time trying to track down a single water leak*.  Seeing as how Airstream
constructs their trailers with no sealant between the overlapped metal makes
it imperative that everyone purchase and keep on hand lots of Vulkem for the
future leaks that WILL certainly come to all our trailers.  I'm very
disappointed to say the least in learning that the best travel trailer on
the road is not built better - and they should be, the technology is there
and the price tags suggest the very best of everything which it is now
apparent it is not.

I will say this:  If any of the travel trailers I own need work done on them
the work will be up to aircraft standards or damn close to it if at all
possible.  If I ever need to replace sheetmetal, it WILL have sealant
between each and every layer - however it won't have bare metal covered with
sealant that serves no purpose like is used today by the factory.  I will
also use much better fasteners than the cheap Olympic rivets - on the order
of Cherry Max or Cherry-Lok.  I will also purchase the tools to do a better
job on my own trailers than the factory does at this time.  I'm very
disappointed in Airstream - they are the best, they need to BE the best in
their construction methods as well.

Tom
WBCCI 5303


From: "Charlie/Betty Burke" <cbburke@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> Airstream does now use SikaFlex.
The riveted metal to metal joint does not have a sealant applied
> to it and is not considered water tight. The natural movement of the metal
would
> break any such seal. The interior sealant is the primary water tight seal.
> Vulkem, once applied and set is an extremely flexible, durable seal.
> Charlie

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 13:22:34 -0500
From: "Tom" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: [VAL] Olympic rivets - the rest of the story ;)

Thank you for your post, Andy.  I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Tom
WBCCI 5303

From: <Inlandrv@xxxxxxxxxx.com>

> OLYMPIC RIVETS.
> Using olympic rivets "with washers" is foolish at best.
> It's is nothing more than a "VERY SHORT TERM" method of replacing an
exterior
> buck rivet, and "HOPE" is doesn't leak.
> There are two inherent problems with the washer type olympic rivet.
> The first is that the neoprene washer will age out (the hotter the
weather,
> the faster), plus the heat from the metal. When the washer is aged out, it
will
> crack which gives you a nice water leak.
> The second is that because of the washer barrier, the sheet metal "WILL
NOT"
> hold together as tight as a washerless rivet or buck rivet.
> Therefore we highly discourage the use of a washer type olympic rivet on
any
> Airstream product.
> Additionally, they cost more and ultimately, "FAIL."
> If it takes more time to do the job "right" then so be it. Adding vulkem
> sealer underneath the head of a replacement olympic rivet, actually is
superior to
> the original construction, in that each replaced rivet is sealed
underneath
> the rivet head.
> Hopefully, this ends the confusion and stops, in it's tracks, an illusion
of
> using a superior part, when if fact it is "inferior."
> A washer type olympic rivet therefore is a stop gap and short lived method
of
> repair.
> Andy
> Inland RV Center, Inc.
> The worlds largest supplier of Airstream vintage parts.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:21:31 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
From: Amanda Meeker <goldens510@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Hoo, boy!   RE: 1956 Caravanner Skin Care

Hi, Tom,

Well, I join you in the minority on the Cherry Max vs. Olympic issue. I got some flak 
from a purist or two at the rally I attended last fall for having chosen to use the 
Cherry Max for my big skin repair, but I'm comfortable that it makes sense to use the 
superior product even if they don't look exactly like the original rivets. 

Best,

Amanda Meeker
'68 Safari
Sacramento

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 12:54:49 -0700
From: johansen@xxxxxxxxxx.net
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #190

Andy

Are the washerless olympics superior to the buck rivets?

Ken J.


Quoting Inlandrv@xxxxxxxxxx.com:

> OLYMPIC RIVETS.
>
>
> Using olympic rivets "with washers" is foolish at best.
>
> It's is nothing more than a "VERY SHORT TERM" method of replacing an exterior
> buck rivet, and "HOPE" is doesn't leak.
>
> There are two inherent problems with the washer type olympic rivet.
>
> The first is that the neoprene washer will age out (the hotter the weather,
> the faster), plus the heat from the metal. When the washer is aged out, it
> will
> crack which gives you a nice water leak.
>
> The second is that because of the washer barrier, the sheet metal "WILL NOT"
> hold together as tight as a washerless rivet or buck rivet.
>
> Therefore we highly discourage the use of a washer type olympic rivet on any
> Airstream product.
>
> Additionally, they cost more and ultimately, "FAIL."
>
> If it takes more time to do the job "right" then so be it. Adding vulkem
> sealer underneath the head of a replacement olympic rivet, actually is
> superior to
> the original construction, in that each replaced rivet is sealed underneath
> the rivet head.
>
> Hopefully, this ends the confusion and stops, in it's tracks, an illusion of
> using a superior part, when if fact it is "inferior."
>
> A washer type olympic rivet therefore is a stop gap and short lived method of
> repair.
>
> Andy
> Inland RV Center, Inc.
> The worlds largest supplier of Airstream vintage parts.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:16:10 -0500
From: "Tom" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: [VAL] Ken re:solid rivets vs Olympic rivets

Hi Ken,

I'm not Andy but ...

Bucked rivets are solid rivets that have had their tails "bucked".  The
solid rivet is very much stronger than any blind rivet although the Cherry
Max and Cherry-Lok rivets are extremely strong also.  Of course you'd only
use a blind fastener when you couldn't get to the tail of a solid rivet.

Tom
WBCCI 5303

From: <johansen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> Andy
> Are the washerless olympics superior to the buck rivets?
> Ken J.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:13:58 -0700
From: johansen@xxxxxxxxxx.net
Subject: Re: [VAL] Ken re:solid rivets vs Olympic rivets

I figured that buck rivets are much stronger - my impression from Andy is the
olympic rivit is just as strong or stronger.

Ken J.

Quoting Tom <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>:

> Hi Ken,
>
> I'm not Andy but ...
>
> Bucked rivets are solid rivets that have had their tails "bucked".  The
> solid rivet is very much stronger than any blind rivet although the Cherry
> Max and Cherry-Lok rivets are extremely strong also.  Of course you'd only
> use a blind fastener when you couldn't get to the tail of a solid rivet.
>
> Tom
> WBCCI 5303
>
> From: <johansen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> > Andy
> > Are the washerless olympics superior to the buck rivets?
> > Ken J.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 17:17:04 -0500
From: "Jim Stewart" <9stewart@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Rock Shields

I believe someone on this list was looking for a source for rock shields.
There are some on Ebay now. The item number is 2232867058.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 17:22:48 -0500
From: "Tom" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Ken re:solid rivets vs Olympic rivets

I didn't get that impression from his post, Ken.

Tom

From: <johansen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> I figured that buck rivets are much stronger - my impression from Andy is
the
> olympic rivit is just as strong or stronger.
> Ken J.

> Quoting Tom <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>:
> > Hi Ken,
> > I'm not Andy but ...
> > Bucked rivets are solid rivets that have had their tails "bucked".  The
> > solid rivet is very much stronger than any blind rivet although the
Cherry
> > Max and Cherry-Lok rivets are extremely strong also.  Of course you'd
only
> > use a blind fastener when you couldn't get to the tail of a solid rivet.
> > Tom
> > WBCCI 5303

> > From: <johansen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> > > Andy
> > > Are the washerless olympics superior to the buck rivets?
> > > Ken J.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 11:06:56 -0500
From: Terry Tyler <tylerbears@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] refrigerator removal

On Sunday, March 14, 2004, at 01:00 AM, VAL Digest wrote:

> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 13:07:28 -0700
> From: <phelock@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
> Subject: [VAL] Refrigerator removal
>
> Help!!
>
> I want to remove the refrigerator from my 1966 Trade Wind.
>
> I see two attaching screws at the front. I see no screws at the back.
>
> Are these the only screws securing the refrig. in the trailer?
>
> I would like to hear from any one that has information on this subject.
>
Hi Curtis,

Removing a refrigerator the first time may be the toughest. After that, 
the job can be matter of fact and no big deal. But, I had one problem 
that might interest you.

After I removed the screws and bolts in the floor and the screws along 
the side wall, I thought I was ready to remove the refrigerator from 
our '67 22' Safari. There was a rectangular sheet of aluminum (similar 
to Gary Quamen's description) across the width in back of the 
refrigerator under all the woodwork - where I couldn't see it.

What I didn't understand was how the sheet was secured to the woodwork. 
There were no screws. Instead, it "seemed" to have been pressure 
pressed into the base of the cabinet's woodwork. The aluminum sheet had 
a 90 degree fold where it went down the wall and was connected to it 
with screws. Those were the only screws I could find in the aluminum 
sheet.

Writing about it takes a few minutes, but it took two days before I 
suspected the other end of the sheet might be pressed tightly into the 
woodwork beneath the countertop. During the countertop's 37 years, this 
tight fit "seemed" to have become permanent (probably helped by spills 
on the counter). After confirming no more screws along the side walls, 
I took a calculated risk and muscled the refrigerator out from its wall 
position. This really should be a two person job, but can be done by 
one person with a lot of grunting.

Others have commented on the screws and bolts securing their 
refrigerator to the floor. Mine had two screws, but one had broken off. 
While the refrigerator was out, I drilled a new hole in the 
refrigerator's frame for the replacement screw.  I also drilled a 
starter hole for the screw in the wooden floor where I thought the 
frame would sit (I measured carefully and prayed).

Also, I bought 2 new bolts, washers and nuts to use instead of the old 
ones. They went in easily with a socket wrench - up from under the 
belly pan. Lastly, the plastic plugs were inserted in the belly pan.

As an aside, while I was putting the refrigerator back in place, the 
aluminum sheet didn't "fit" beneath the countertop where it had been 
for 37 years. After several failed attempts, I placed a mirror on the 
floor of the refrigerator compartment and adjusted it to shine light up 
into the back of the refrigerator. I wanted to see what I was doing. 
(Duhh)

Then, from inside the trailer, I could see along the side wall behind 
the refrigerator - just enough of the aluminum sheet to estimate the 
alignment zone I needed. That's all it took. The aluminum sheet slid 
right in - slick as a whistle.

Before securing the refrigerator (trailer was 4 way level) to the 
floor, I leveled the refrigerator's lower framework (where the gas 
lines are located) with the floor by including a shim along one side. 
No big deal, but this was the time for that minor correction.

Now the countertop over the refrigerator has the same effect on my 
bubble level as it has inside the refrigerator and as it has on the 
opposite kitchen counter. No more apples rolling off one counter but 
not the other. Both counters are level.

By the time you read this, your refrigerator removal will probably be 
all done. Maybe portions of this information will be useful to someone 
else.

Terry

mailto:tylerbears@xxxxxxxxxx.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:56:28 -0700
From: "Scott Fling" <sfling@sg-realty.com>
Subject: [VAL] Anyone in the Denver area?

I am finding out very quickly that I dont know jack about Airstream
trailers. I have read a few books, seen a few trailers, talked to a few
people, etc. but everytime I think I have a handle on what I want I get
reminded why I dont want that. Are there any VA members near me that could
possibly show me their trailers? Maybe after seeing enough of them I will
start to get a better idea of what to do and how much it is going to cost
me. Please e-mail me and let me know if you are close to Denver and want to
show off your toy. Also, I may need someone who is knowledgable to do a
pre-buy inspection on a trailer if I am lucky enough to find one. (I would
gladly pay for your advice rather than learning the hard way.)

Thanks,

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:29:56 -0500
From: "Myrna Warren" <uncleneal@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Ken re:solid rivets vs Olympic rivets

Andy said:  " Adding vulkem sealer underneath the head of a replacement
olympic rivet, actually is superior to
the original construction, in that each replaced rivet is sealed underneath
the rivet head."

I think that he means that the Olympic rivet with Vulkem underneath is
superior in sealing to the buck rivets without,  not that they are stronger
in holding power.  The topic was which was a better seal, with washers or
without.  He wasn't even discussing holding strength, per se.

Neal


> I figured that buck rivets are much stronger - my impression from Andy is
the
> olympic rivit is just as strong or stronger.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:01:14 -0700
From: Charlie/Betty Burke <cbburke@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Sealing seams internally

Tom,

Besides the torsional loading caused by move down the road, Airstream do stretch
and shrink. You only have to see a winter built coach in a hot summer sun to see
what it does. There can be  quite a wave or ripple effect on the side sheets.

If I did it was not my intention to suggest that Airstream puts Vulkem all over
the inside of the outer skin. In truth they applied it with a putty knife at all
seams and penetrations. Areas like doors and window typically have it lathered
on pretty thick. And again, once Vulkem sets up it is very pliable and does not
deteriorate when applied on the inside. I have seen lots of wrecked ones over
the years. And Vulkem only breaks down when the metal tears. I've not taken
apart as many coaches as Andy but I've seen enough to be comfortable in saying
what I do.

Airstream has been making these things for about 70 years now. As you know
probably better than I do a lot of factors go into the final product. Durability
has always been high the list. A poorly built trailer would not have survived a
Trans Africa or around the World caravan the way these have.

The most common site of a leak is at a seam or joint that has been field
repaired. That is part of the reason why Andy's recommendation to dab some
Vulkem on each rivet before setting is so important. To many folks out there
skip that step. One of the "things to do" when looking at a potential purchase
is to look for replaced panels. If you find one, very carefully inspect the
inside at that location for leaks or a very recently cleaned surface.

The only "redo" of exterior seams is necessary because Vulkem will breakdown
under long term exposure to the sun. But then don't we all. No one that I have
know has or would recommend keeping Vulkem "on hand" to chase leaks. There are
thousands out there that have never leaked.

Another factor that the aircraft industry has to take into consideration is
pressure differentials. Any aircraft that flies above 10,000 feet is usually
pressurized. This cyclic pressure up and pressure down is major factor in
aircraft design I would think. Not a factor at all in Airstreams design.

Charlie

Tom wrote:

> Hi Charlie,
>
> Aircraft have been using sheetmetal that overlaps a minimum of at least two
> rows of fasteners since they've been using aluminum to build them if it is a
> structural part.  Seams on aircraft are sealed on the overlapped areas and
> not the entire area skin area as you've described below.  Aircraft go
> through much more physically than our travel trailers ever would - aircraft
> actually *grow* in length and width at altitude which our Airstreams never
> do even at sea-level.  It is very difficult for me to believe that Airstream
> trailers weaken with age - they are priced from the beginning high enough so
> that this should NEVER happen in my book.  I've yet to see enough torsion
> and flexing to break a properly sealed joint on an Airstream short of
> wrecking the trailer and shredding the metal.
>
> I assume (I hate to use that word) that Airstream is putting sealer all over
> the entire interior skin for several reasons the first of which is it is
> F-A-S-T and cheaper to do rather than the way I feel is the only correct
> method of sealing the joints.  Seal the joints, you have a water-tight
> application that will last and you will have a clean area on the backside of
> the exterior metal.  It is no wonder you can't find a leak - it could be
> ANYWHERE due to the fact that water might be running down the INSIDE of this
> skin sealer they use!
>
> Maybe Airstream needs to rethink it's method of construction?  A slightly
> wider/longer piece of aluminum would make allowance for a double row of
> fasteners *everywhere* there is now a single row - then they could just seal
> the overlapped metal rather than wasting material by trying to waterproof
> plain metal skin.
>
> You know if Airstream made their trailers like aircraft that they used to be
> so fond of saying, there would be no need to treat the backside of the
> exterior skin like they do.  Then again the sales of Vulkem would drop
> dramatically if you didn't *need* to redo all the exterior seams because the
> overlapped metal would have had sealant in place from the very beginning
> like I would like to see them do.
>
> Due to the fact that I have now learned that Airstream is NOT sealing
> overlapped metal skins I now know the reason why it's a *complete waste of
> time trying to track down a single water leak*.  Seeing as how Airstream
> constructs their trailers with no sealant between the overlapped metal makes
> it imperative that everyone purchase and keep on hand lots of Vulkem for the
> future leaks that WILL certainly come to all our trailers.  I'm very
> disappointed to say the least in learning that the best travel trailer on
> the road is not built better - and they should be, the technology is there
> and the price tags suggest the very best of everything which it is now
> apparent it is not.
>
> I will say this:  If any of the travel trailers I own need work done on them
> the work will be up to aircraft standards or damn close to it if at all
> possible.  If I ever need to replace sheetmetal, it WILL have sealant
> between each and every layer - however it won't have bare metal covered with
> sealant that serves no purpose like is used today by the factory.  I will
> also use much better fasteners than the cheap Olympic rivets - on the order
> of Cherry Max or Cherry-Lok.  I will also purchase the tools to do a better
> job on my own trailers than the factory does at this time.  I'm very
> disappointed in Airstream - they are the best, they need to BE the best in
> their construction methods as well.
>
> Tom
> WBCCI 5303
>
> From: "Charlie/Betty Burke" <cbburke@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> > Airstream does now use SikaFlex.
> The riveted metal to metal joint does not have a sealant applied
> > to it and is not considered water tight. The natural movement of the metal
> would
> > break any such seal. The interior sealant is the primary water tight seal.
> > Vulkem, once applied and set is an extremely flexible, durable seal.
> > Charlie
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:39:35 -0700
From: "Kenneth E. Johansen" <johansen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Hello everyone!

Scott

What polish and tools do you use to polish your plane?  I'm always 
interested to hear how different folks polish - especially those who have 
polished aircraft...

Ken J
Durango CO

At 01:14 PM 3/16/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>I just joined the list. My name is Scott Fling and I am currently searching
>for a tandem axle Airstream to restore.
>I became interested in them when I was a kid and decided that since I now
>have so much
>experience polishing aluminum (I also have a Luscombe airplane) that I would
>start searching
>for one right now. If anyone could help me locate a trailer I would
>appreciate it. The reason for
>the tandem is that I have three young daughters and I will need a unit of
>some size to be able to
>squeeze us all in. Thanks.
>
>Scott
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
>To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
>http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 21:40:28 -0700
From: "Kenneth E. Johansen" <johansen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Hello everyone!

At 01:14 PM 3/16/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>I just joined the list. My name is Scott Fling and I am currently searching
>for a tandem axle Airstream to restore.
>I became interested in them when I was a kid and decided that since I now
>have so much
>experience polishing aluminum (I also have a Luscombe airplane) that I would
>start searching
>for one right now. If anyone could help me locate a trailer I would
>appreciate it. The reason for
>the tandem is that I have three young daughters and I will need a unit of
>some size to be able to
>squeeze us all in. Thanks.
>
>Scott
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
>To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
>http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:50:52 -0700
From: "Forrest" <forrest@xxxxxxxxxx.org>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Hoo, boy!   RE: 1956 Caravanner Skin Care

Tom and Andy,

What do you think of "closed end" rivets? I know that they don't look like
bucked rivets, but the rivet suppliers say they are stronger than "pop"
rivets and because the end is closed they are water proof. I've used them in
a few places on the exterior where the bucked rivet was never used (around
the water heater for instance) and so far they seem to be holding up well.

Forrest

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [VAL] Hoo, boy! RE: 1956 Caravanner Skin Care


> Olympic rivets are *not* designed for aircraft repair.  The Olympic rivets
> appear to be more likely designed for *sheetrock* rather than *sheet
metal*,
> aluminum.
>
> If you've ever seen how the Olympic rivets work, how they pull and
compress
> they really DO look like those fasteners used on gypsum wallboard.  I do
not
> like them for repairs on *my* Airstream trailers, I know they are inferior
> to the original solid fasteners but that's a no-brainer.
>
> However, Olympic rivets are *cheaper* than other really good fasteners
such
> as the Cherry Max and Cherry-Lok rivets - both of which you need a special
> pulling gun to do the job right.  You can pull some of the very small
> diameter Cherry Max and Cherry-Lok rivets with a very good hand riveter
but
> the jaws will most likely not last a very long time because they were not
> designed to pull these type fasteners.
>
> I know I'm in the minority on this rivet issue so there is no reason to
> lambaste me here - do so in private if you feel you must and we will
discuss
> it from there off the list.  Solid fasteners are best and used correctly
> they offer you the best of both worlds - they are light in weight and very
> strong.  If you can't use a solid rivet you should go with a blind
> fastener - if you really need to or you could go with a very strong nut
and
> bolt made out of stainless steel.  I know, I'm getting too technical here
> but it's the way I do things differently than the Airstream factory you
see.
>
> In my eyes there are right ways and wrong ways and cheap ways to fix
things.
> I choose to do the very best repair work on my two Airstream travel
trailers
> and that calls for using what I feel is the correct hardware.  I don't go
> cheap - the cheapest tools are the most expensive *because* you end up
> buying them over and over and over.  The same can be said for using cheap
> repair parts.
>
> Let me ask you this:
>
>     Why on Earth would anyone want to use cheap parts on such an expensive
> travel trailer like our Airstreams?  Do it right the first time if you
need
> to make a repair and it will last you as long as you own the trailer.  I
> advocate repairs that are at least as strong or stronger than the original
> and that is why when I fix something it stays fixed for me.  Just the way
I
> do things I guess.
>
> Tom
> WBCCI 5303
>
>
> From: "Mr. Joy H. Hansen" <joytbrew@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> > Well I don't know, but .  .  . if Olympic rivets are designed for
aircraft
> > repair .  .  .  Joy
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 22:48:20 -0700
From: "gshippen" <gshippen@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] "Scott Fling--possible Airstream available"

Hi Scott,
I was traveling on I25 north from Cheyenne, WY just last evening and saw one
tandem axle Airstream trailer in Wheatland, WY stored by some warehouses
near the Interstate.  I looked quite good at a glance and was a post 1968
model.

For what it may be worth to you.  Gerald Shippen
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Fling" <sfling@sg-realty.com>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 1:14 PM
Subject: [VAL] Hello everyone!


> I just joined the list. My name is Scott Fling and I am currently
searching
> for a tandem axle Airstream to restore.
> I became interested in them when I was a kid and decided that since I now
> have so much
> experience polishing aluminum (I also have a Luscombe airplane) that I
would
> start searching
> for one right now. If anyone could help me locate a trailer I would
> appreciate it. The reason for
> the tandem is that I have three young daughters and I will need a unit of
> some size to be able to
> squeeze us all in. Thanks.
>
> Scott
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

End of VAL Digest V1 #191
*************************


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