VAL Digest V1 #157

VAL Digest          Friday, February 13 2004          Volume 01 : Number 157




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Topics in Today's Digest:

[VAL] membership elegibility
Re: [VAL] membership elegibility
Re: [VAL] WBCCI Survey
Re: [VAL] penetrating epoxy
Re: [VAL] penetrating epoxy
[VAL] Re; WBCCI survey
Re: [VAL] WBCCI Survey
Re: [VAL] WBCCI Survey
Re: [VAL] WBCCI Survey
RE: [VAL] WBCCI Survey
[VAL] Declining WBCCI members...was survey
RE: [VAL] Declining WBCCI members...was survey
[VAL] Frame Separation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 04:18:15 -0500
From: "Scott Scheuermann" <s.l.scheuermann@xxxxxxxxxx.att.net>
Subject: [VAL] membership elegibility

Buddy, if the serial number says that it is a 1979 then you are good to go!
If you can't decipher the serial number then post it and someone who can
will decipher it for you. However, with a manufacture date of July '79 I
would not question you, and I am the one who would process your application!

Scott Scheuermann
VAC Membership Chairman
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:09:42 -0600
> From: "Buddy" <buddat@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> Subject: [VAL] re:  wbcci  vac
>
> I have an int'l 31' manufatured in jul 79, but registered as an 80 model.
I
> am only interested in the wbcci because of the vintage A/S club.  Can
someone
> tell when my Int'l will be eligible to be considered vintage?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Buddy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:49:30 -0600
From: "Buddy" <buddat@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] membership elegibility

"Buddy, if the serial number says that it is a 1979 then you are good to
go!"

Thanks, Scott. I just mailed a check to WBCCI for an at large membership.

The Data Plate on my international indicates the date of manufacture is July
24, 1979. The Serial Number of the unit is:  331-BOJ-1302. I think was a
pretty common practice for dealers to register the units as the year model
of the year they were sold in.
As soon as I get my membership package back from WBCCI, I will apply for
membership in the local Vintage club.

Thanks again,
Buddy.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:48:55 -0600
From: schuetzen - RKBA! <chasm@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] WBCCI Survey

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:47:29 -0500, "Edward Emerick" <EEMERICK@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
wrote:

>
>I didn't know that there was a proper way to wear the thing, I did it to
>keep the old guys happy. BTW, Since I'm my Unit's Quarter Master, you
>want to buy one?

Ed
<G>  am I in your unit??  answer in short is - no.  but - thanks for asking<G>
no, I wore one in Veet Nam enough and watched how our French allies wore them,
etc.

the sucker is supposed to be held up by the bit of heraldry on the right or left
side - until it gets worn down and softened with rain, sweat, blood and tears,
not necessarily in that order, makes a great pot holder and for removing hot
machine gun barrels.  oh yeah, how to wear.. the opposite side is supposed to
lie down flat on the head and curve around and down the side of the skull.  it
is not supposed to look like an ugly woman's ugly pill box ugly hat. ugly!
It is customarily carried rolled up and tucked under one epaulette on the
uniform shirt or coat or blouse, etc.


when you see Army and AF troops on teh street, look at how they are wearing it,
at least it is correct.  

and back to changes in the WBCCI, I have NO interest in even belonging to it
other than it is necessary to belong to the VAC.  isfai can tell, it is just
another social club and I feel social clubs are of zilch value.  the VAC is
something else.  it is primarily about the trailers, not the trailer life.
So, I will not spend time and 37 cents sending in a survey.  unless it is to
say, that I think that the WBCCI should release the VAC from sub-club status and
make it independent.  I really do HATE sending money to WBCCI!!  Bit conversely,
I LOVE the VAC! sigh

fwiw
chas (LtC, USA, Rtd) curmudgeon 
- --
Charles L Hamilton,  chasm@xxxxxxxxxx.net  Houston, TX
WBCCI/WDCU #1130  VAC   S*M*A*R*T
'76 Sovereign   '02 E350 SD PSD, Prodigy, Pullrite
- ----------RKBA!---------------------------------
X-No-Archive: Yes
.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:59:54 EST
From: JSmith1805@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] penetrating epoxy

Git Rot is a wonderful product if you wish to pay for the hype and 
advertisement that they do. Pinitrating epoxy is all virtuly the same the big differance 
is in the packageing.The last that I knew there were about 3 manufactures of 
epoxy and they sold it in drum quanities to retailewrs who than repackaged it 
with their brand names .
Jim Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:26:35 -0600
From: "David R. Warner, Jr" <david@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] penetrating epoxy

Try www.abatron.com

_DAVID WARNER

At 06:45 AM 2/11/2004, you wrote:

>Hi all- I've heard mention of this stuff on the list several times. Have 
>made a few efforts to find at good hardware stores without luck. Can 
>someone give me a manufacturer's name, and perhaps an internet address? 
>I've got subfloor work to do as soon as the weather warms up..
>Thanks,
>
>Chris
>'79 Int'l @ 31'
>New  WBCCI  member (waiting on the vintage paperwork..)
>
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>
>

===========================================================

David R. Warner, Jr.
19507 485th Lane
McGregor, Minnesota 55760
Phone 218-426-3900
Cell 218-838-4972
David@xxxxxxxxxx.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:53:37 -00
From: "John Schubert" <flynya@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Re; WBCCI survey

In addition to filling out the survey's there are some good thoughts
on the subject at the Airstream website & Airstream forums and the
WBCCI forum is now open to post your comments as well (links
below) I hope the upper management reads it with an open mind that
changes are very needed soon.

www.airstream.com/airstreamer/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2828#2828

www.wbcci.org/Forum/ 

www.airstreamforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=9290&goto=newpo
st 

John

Midwest Flying Service
Aircraft Maintenance
Authorized CorrosionX Treatment Center
Mobile Service
913-682-7230

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:06:25 -0700
From: "Stan Truitt" <stan.truitt@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] WBCCI Survey

<isfai can tell, it is just
another social club and I feel social clubs are of zilch value.  the VAC is
something else.  it is primarily about the trailers, not the trailer life>


as i see it, the wbcci 's active membership is primarily made up of retired
folks.....and it is a social club. however IMHO, any club is usually made up
of people with commonality in an interest or subject and socializing to me
can be done on an internet forum or around a campfire. the governing body of
the wbcci, i assume makes plans, decisions and scheduled events based on the
wants of it's majority members....the retired members having the means to
own the very best in rv's, the time to use them and the desire to socialize
with their peers. i don't see the vac as being that different from the
wbcci. we too are a membership with a commonality of interests. these
interests no doubt differ somewhat from those of the rank & file wbcci with
our interests leaning more toward a number of things including afordability,
pride of DIY restoration , historical interest and nostalgia as well as
socializing with our peers as time may allow. i do believe that the vac
should be an integral part of the wbcci but i would like to see it's stature
elevated within the main club. seems to me that the interests we have in the
past can certainly be part of their future. after all, as the years go by, i
am sure that each of our interests will change somewhat. we might just be
the future active members of the main club. i for one look forward to the
day that i can take off a month or more at a time to do what i wish. as a
new member to both clubs i sure would be interested in some of the issues
that the vac has with its parent. any imput would be helpful. thanks
harry truitt
66safari

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:02:44 -0500
From: "Jim Greene" <drgreene@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] WBCCI Survey

My membership in WBCCI has spanned a period of 30 years. The activities now
are the same as they were 30 years ago. The biggest difference is the
continuing decline in membership. I wonder why.

Jim Greene
' 68 Tradewind, WBCCI #1148, VAC, WDCU

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stan Truitt" <stan.truitt@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [VAL] WBCCI Survey


> <isfai can tell, it is just
> another social club and I feel social clubs are of zilch value.  the VAC
is
> something else.  it is primarily about the trailers, not the trailer life>
>
>
> as i see it, the wbcci 's active membership is primarily made up of
retired
> folks.....and it is a social club. however IMHO, any club is usually made
up
> of people with commonality in an interest or subject and socializing to me
> can be done on an internet forum or around a campfire. the governing body
of
> the wbcci, i assume makes plans, decisions and scheduled events based on
the
> wants of it's majority members....the retired members having the means to
> own the very best in rv's, the time to use them and the desire to
socialize
> with their peers. i don't see the vac as being that different from the
> wbcci. we too are a membership with a commonality of interests. these
> interests no doubt differ somewhat from those of the rank & file wbcci
with
> our interests leaning more toward a number of things including
afordability,
> pride of DIY restoration , historical interest and nostalgia as well as
> socializing with our peers as time may allow. i do believe that the vac
> should be an integral part of the wbcci but i would like to see it's
stature
> elevated within the main club. seems to me that the interests we have in
the
> past can certainly be part of their future. after all, as the years go by,
i
> am sure that each of our interests will change somewhat. we might just be
> the future active members of the main club. i for one look forward to the
> day that i can take off a month or more at a time to do what i wish. as a
> new member to both clubs i sure would be interested in some of the issues
> that the vac has with its parent. any imput would be helpful. thanks
> harry truitt
> 66safari

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 19:37:54 -0500
From: Dave Lowrey <airstream@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] WBCCI Survey

WBCCI is in a bind.

It's current membership, which consists mostly of retired folks, still like 
to do many of the things that WBCCI did 30 years ago.

However, doing things the way they did 30 years ago prevents them from 
recruiting new members who dont want to do those things.

How do you keep the current membership happy, while attracting new members 
as well????

Dave

At 04:02 PM 2/12/2004, you wrote:
>My membership in WBCCI has spanned a period of 30 years. The activities now
>are the same as they were 30 years ago. The biggest difference is the
>continuing decline in membership. I wonder why.
>
>Jim Greene
>' 68 Tradewind, WBCCI #1148, VAC, WDCU
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Stan Truitt" <stan.truitt@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
>To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
>Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 2:06 PM
>Subject: Re: [VAL] WBCCI Survey
>
>
> > <isfai can tell, it is just
> > another social club and I feel social clubs are of zilch value.  the VAC
>is
> > something else.  it is primarily about the trailers, not the trailer life>
> >
> >
> > as i see it, the wbcci 's active membership is primarily made up of
>retired
> > folks.....and it is a social club. however IMHO, any club is usually made
>up
> > of people with commonality in an interest or subject and socializing to me
> > can be done on an internet forum or around a campfire. the governing body
>of
> > the wbcci, i assume makes plans, decisions and scheduled events based on
>the
> > wants of it's majority members....the retired members having the means to
> > own the very best in rv's, the time to use them and the desire to
>socialize
> > with their peers. i don't see the vac as being that different from the
> > wbcci. we too are a membership with a commonality of interests. these
> > interests no doubt differ somewhat from those of the rank & file wbcci
>with
> > our interests leaning more toward a number of things including
>afordability,
> > pride of DIY restoration , historical interest and nostalgia as well as
> > socializing with our peers as time may allow. i do believe that the vac
> > should be an integral part of the wbcci but i would like to see it's
>stature
> > elevated within the main club. seems to me that the interests we have in
>the
> > past can certainly be part of their future. after all, as the years go by,
>i
> > am sure that each of our interests will change somewhat. we might just be
> > the future active members of the main club. i for one look forward to the
> > day that i can take off a month or more at a time to do what i wish. as a
> > new member to both clubs i sure would be interested in some of the issues
> > that the vac has with its parent. any imput would be helpful. thanks
> > harry truitt
> > 66safari
>
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>When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
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_________________________________________________________________
Dave & Ann Lowrey - dave_lowrey@xxxxxxxxxx.com

WBCCI: 5074

1977 31' Sovereign International (center bath)
Cincinnati, Ohio  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:27:28 -0500
From: "Edward Emerick" <EEMERICK@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: [VAL] WBCCI Survey

Hello,
To address your comments:
You don't have to belong (short answer) to my Unit for me to sell you
one, I'd be very glad to make the exception, my Unit would allow you in.
I do know that in a military since I would not follow any example from
the French, I never surrender. As far as seeing them in the street on
the head of SF soldier, if I do, in WI, today, it would be a sight. 

The WBCCI has its place, for one to support the efforts of the VAC. Its
easy to sit on the outside and make judgments, but for those of us who
have stepped up and shed Blood, Sweat and tears (not in that order) to
help improve this "Social Club" it is important to let the WBCCI know
haw we feel about the future of MY club. You see most of us really
active VACers are presidents or past presidents or on our way to being
president of our WBCCI local Units. We have a vision of how we would
like to see this club evolve to meet our needs and are willing to work
through the tough stuff to see the club flourish so you can enjoy its
benefits (VAC).

I can understand that you might not want to invest $.37, but not to send
your opinions the WBCCI seems to me Un-American. If you have an opinion,
spend the time and money and voice it. You're allowed, my Dad fought for
your right to do so.

VAC independence is not in the better interest of the INTRACLUB, but
rather we should pool our efforts to make change and not sit in the
background and complain (I'm now being polite). If you loved the VAC and
what it represents then you would understand that the Vintage trailer
you own is part of this American Tradition and was once new and part of
the WBCCI. Contribute.

Ed (My daddy always said the military was built on the back of the
Non-Com and NEVER trust an Officer who never heard an shot fired in
anger)
WBCCI/VAC 4425 (notice the order)
69 Sovereign
59 Traveler
Region 7 VAC Rep
WI Unit Legislative Chairman
WI Unit Nominating Committee Chairman
WI Unit Quartermaster
Past WI Unit President (2003)
Father of the WI Unit Teen Queen (2003)
Father of the International Teen Queen 2nd Runner up 2003
Father of the WI Unit Teen Queen 2004 (different Daughter)
Husband of the WI Unit Membership Chairperson
Husband of the WI Unit Teen Queen Chairperson
Husband of the WI Past Recording Secretary and Corresponding Secretary
(Are we WBCCI involved or what?)




- -----Original Message-----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com
[mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com] On Behalf Of schuetzen - RKBA!
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 10:49 AM
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] WBCCI Survey


On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:47:29 -0500, "Edward Emerick"
<EEMERICK@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
wrote:

>
>I didn't know that there was a proper way to wear the thing, I did it 
>to keep the old guys happy. BTW, Since I'm my Unit's Quarter Master, 
>you want to buy one?

Ed
<G>  am I in your unit??  answer in short is - no.  but - thanks for
asking<G> no, I wore one in Veet Nam enough and watched how our French
allies wore them, etc.

the sucker is supposed to be held up by the bit of heraldry on the right
or left side - until it gets worn down and softened with rain, sweat,
blood and tears, not necessarily in that order, makes a great pot holder
and for removing hot machine gun barrels.  oh yeah, how to wear.. the
opposite side is supposed to lie down flat on the head and curve around
and down the side of the skull.  it is not supposed to look like an ugly
woman's ugly pill box ugly hat. ugly! It is customarily carried rolled
up and tucked under one epaulette on the uniform shirt or coat or
blouse, etc.


when you see Army and AF troops on teh street, look at how they are
wearing it, at least it is correct.  

and back to changes in the WBCCI, I have NO interest in even belonging
to it other than it is necessary to belong to the VAC.  isfai can tell,
it is just another social club and I feel social clubs are of zilch
value.  the VAC is something else.  it is primarily about the trailers,
not the trailer life. So, I will not spend time and 37 cents sending in
a survey.  unless it is to say, that I think that the WBCCI should
release the VAC from sub-club status and make it independent.  I really
do HATE sending money to WBCCI!!  Bit conversely, I LOVE the VAC! sigh

fwiw
chas (LtC, USA, Rtd) curmudgeon 
- --
Charles L Hamilton,  chasm@xxxxxxxxxx.net  Houston, TX
WBCCI/WDCU #1130  VAC   S*M*A*R*T
'76 Sovereign   '02 E350 SD PSD, Prodigy, Pullrite
- ----------RKBA!---------------------------------
X-No-Archive: Yes
.

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:24:57 -0500
From: "Nick Novia" <nicholas_s_novia@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Declining WBCCI members...was survey

Dave said " It's current membership, which consists mostly of retired folks,
still like
> to do many of the things that WBCCI did 30 years ago."
...and "However, doing things the way they did 30 years ago prevents them
from  recruiting new members who dont want to do those things."


This question comes up all the time.  I don't know what the answers
are...but I have a few thoughts about it.
These WBCCI "folks," the same folks that have been members for a long time,
some even a lifetime..."do" the same things as they always have...because
they have fun!

Every so often, some more often than others, they load up their gear, and
"hit" the roadways of the Continent!

 They actually get out of their houses and tackle new adventures in their
beloved Airstreams.  I don't think the Airstreams make them like that, I
think they are a special breed of "folks" who just can't get their
satisfactions from sitting around their "permanent" homes...with a remote
control...in front of a television!

IMHO...the problem with declining memberships, is the American lifestyle!!
We are growing more lazy, spoiled and fatter all the time.

Yes...maybe the WBCCI could modify their Caravans...to long
weekends...entice the "workaholics" into joining the groups...there are some
solutions.  Mostly I think that the days of great numbers actually getting
out and doing physical stuff...are over.

The big question is...what do the new members want to do that the older
members don't?

Meanwhile...the member numbers are declining...through attrition!  The
lifetime members are still "on the road" right up to their ends.  They are a
noble bunch of pioneers...still.

Get out, have fun, invite your family and friends...and the situation may
change.  If it doesn't...then..."you" enjoy!

Nick Novia  "grounded in domestic Hell...with only a shell of my,
'68 Safari
WBCCI 2577
WDCU
VAC

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:38:41 -0500
From: "Edward Emerick" <EEMERICK@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: [VAL] Declining WBCCI members...was survey

Well said!
Ed
WBCCI/VAC 4425
68 Sovereign
59 Traveler

- -----Original Message-----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com
[mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com] On Behalf Of Nick Novia
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 10:25 PM
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Declining WBCCI members...was survey


Dave said " It's current membership, which consists mostly of retired
folks, still like
> to do many of the things that WBCCI did 30 years ago."
...and "However, doing things the way they did 30 years ago prevents
them from  recruiting new members who dont want to do those things."


This question comes up all the time.  I don't know what the answers
are...but I have a few thoughts about it. These WBCCI "folks," the same
folks that have been members for a long time, some even a
lifetime..."do" the same things as they always have...because they have
fun!

Every so often, some more often than others, they load up their gear,
and "hit" the roadways of the Continent!

 They actually get out of their houses and tackle new adventures in
their beloved Airstreams.  I don't think the Airstreams make them like
that, I think they are a special breed of "folks" who just can't get
their satisfactions from sitting around their "permanent" homes...with a
remote control...in front of a television!

IMHO...the problem with declining memberships, is the American
lifestyle!! We are growing more lazy, spoiled and fatter all the time.

Yes...maybe the WBCCI could modify their Caravans...to long
weekends...entice the "workaholics" into joining the groups...there are
some solutions.  Mostly I think that the days of great numbers actually
getting out and doing physical stuff...are over.

The big question is...what do the new members want to do that the older
members don't?

Meanwhile...the member numbers are declining...through attrition!  The
lifetime members are still "on the road" right up to their ends.  They
are a noble bunch of pioneers...still.

Get out, have fun, invite your family and friends...and the situation
may change.  If it doesn't...then..."you" enjoy!

Nick Novia  "grounded in domestic Hell...with only a shell of my, '68
Safari WBCCI 2577 WDCU VAC

- -----------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 21:57:45 -0800 (PST)
From: ThreePeaksRanch <threepeaksranch@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Frame Separation

To SUM up Frame Separation
Frame separation has been repaired/patched by running rods into the frame 
channels that run the length of the trailer. When you see a trailer, particulary 
the longer units from the late 60's thru the mid 70's, please be ware that there 
is no caulking in the area between the body and the bumper. THIS is a heads up 
to a problem. Once the channels have been stabilized and reinforced by the rods, 
the trailer is virtually stronger than it was originally and is most likely not 
to have the same issues again for the life of the trailer. The separation generally 
occurs when the trailer has had full tanks, been hauled with full tanks, and has 
tooooooo much (Beatrice mainly) weight behind the rear axle. OK?
 
20 units and counting:)
VAL Digest <valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com> wrote:

VAL Digest Wednesday, February 11 2004 Volume 01 : Number 155




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Topics in Today's Digest:

RE: [VAL] Frame Separation
[VAL] For Sale
RE: [VAL] For Sale
[VAL] Flooring Questions
[VAL] Peel and Stick Tiles
Re: [VAL] Frame Seperation
RE: [VAL] Lost the archives....
Re: [VAL] Frame Seperation
Re: [VAL] Frame Seperation
Re: [VAL] Peel and Stick Tiles
Re: [VAL] Lost the archives....
[VAL] Fresh water and Black Water Tanks and fittings
[VAL] What kind of hole is there?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:35:53 -0500
From: "Gary L.\"Snook\" Hoffman" 
Subject: RE: [VAL] Frame Separation

What Joy has stated is true... Those are not ramblings but accurate general
truisms on what to look for and how to fix it.

Gary L. "Snook" Hoffman
69 Safari being reconfigured, (not restored) to Mobile Hunt/Fish Camp.

- - -----Original Message-----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com
[mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com]On Behalf Of Mr. Joy H. Hansen
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 12:54 AM
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] Frame Seperation


William,

I have a '69 Safari and the condition you describe had more to do with
water/corrosion than anything else. If you notice considerable rust on the
skid rails, feel the floor around the holding tank. It's my opinion that
the condition is caused when NO seal is between the plate on top of the
bumper frame allows water to run back onto the wood floor. Any rivet, etc.
would fail under continual soaking with water and the rotting floor
exacerbates the problem. If your Airstream spent it's entire life in a high
desert, then none of my experiences are applicable. Or, the Sovergn is in
the 30 foot class and didn't have reinforcing plates mounted aft of the
axles, the sag is most likely from bad engineering.

You asked if you could use the Airstream without damage. I would say that
the structural damage you will do could ruin it. All the structural
components act to gather to make a sound structure. Remove one, and it's
like a house of cards. Broken skin rivets loose stringers, bows, and
buckled skin, etc. Like damage from running with sagging axles. '69 is the
last year that the Henchen axle torsion rubber deteriorates. Sometime in
'69 there was a change. Mine happened to have the trashy wimpy torsion
rubber. The new axle is waiting to be installed. It's a Dexter axle with
the large brake drums, oval magnets, and a parking brake mechanism. Bad
axles, like unbalanced wheels will destroy the Airstream structure.

Most likely, you'll find that the floor is rotted across the entire rear.
The floor is sandwiched between the iron cross brace on the bottom(welded to
the frame at both ends) and an inverted aluminum "u" channel on the top.
When the floor is gone, it's possible for the rivets to prevent total
separation. With the amount of separation, you should be able to feel the
rivets. There are also bolts that protrude through the lower cross brace.
These do not have anything to do with holding the body to the frame! The
floor is bolted to the bottom cross brace as it is on all out riggers. The
inverted "U" channel is "screwed" to the floor in most areas. Across the
front and rear, clinch rivets through the entire sandwich were used. The
frame was installed in sections. Where these sections join on the floor, I
found huge gaps that allowed vermin to enter the monocoque insulation
through out the trailer. :(

Another common construction failure is when the trim strip around the bottom
of the trailer hides the fact that the skin stops just above the floor and
the banana curves direct the drips to the floor. More continual rot. I
added a splash shield to prevent this kind of damage to my replacement
floor.

My fix was to remove the bathroom and replace the floor. Had to drive it
between the upper "U" and a new brace I welded below. Found a similar
situation around the water heater and at the front and rear of the wheel
wells. You might guess that I removed the guts of the trailer to effect
these repairs. Most restorer's would have trashed a unit in as bad shape as
mine was, but I was new to the scene and went ahead anyway. Also, I removed
the interior skin by cutting about 6 inches off the floor to get at the two
types of fasteners. Those that bolt the floor to the frame and those that
screw the monocoque to the floor. At one time I had drawings and pictures,
but that was a couple of years ago and a couple of computer crashes.

If you don't have rust, haven't lost or replaced the holding tank housing,
and there's no evidence of floor rot, disregard all of my experiences.

My '74 Argosy has an entirely different means to attach the monocoque to the
floor and the frame in the front and rear. Airstream engineers must have
learned something. Much easier to replace the floor in the front and rear.
Yet, the same conditions caused much of the rotting floor damage. Like the
banana curve directing the water inside the belly - causes a lot of rust to
the out riggers, etc. Soggy insulation holds the water for a long time and
compromises rivets, etc.

Unfortunately, I tend to ramble. Hope you get something out of my writings.
Much of it is worth about 2 cents. Then, I have two units undergoing
continual restoration and I have and continue to learn a lot.

Harvey Barlow helped me immensely when I started, but I haven't seen a post
from him for a couple of years. Looks like there are lots of mentors on the
valist to keep the restorations on track.

Regards,
'69 Safari, Joy

- - ----- Original Message -----
From: "William Durkee" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 11:16 AM
Subject: [VAL] Frame Seperation


> It is obvious that the 69 Sovereign is suffering from frame seperation.
The
> bumper is hanging down about 1 inch below the body. If I step lightly on
> the bumper it will move seperatly from the body. When does it become
> mandatory to fix the problem? Can I continue to use the trailer? Will
this
> cause further damage?

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- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:51:41 -0500
From: "Chris Herring" 
Subject: [VAL] For Sale

A woman contacted me about a '67 Ambassador for sale. $2,000. It's in
NJ. I have not seen it. 

Contact: Roberta Shontz email: gotmilk@xxxxxxxxxx.com

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:04:25 -0500
From: "Vasquez, David" 
Subject: RE: [VAL] For Sale

Greetings Chris;
Did she give you any info on the AS.

- - -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Herring [mailto:cherring@xxxxxxxxxx.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 7:52 AM
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] For Sale


A woman contacted me about a '67 Ambassador for sale. $2,000. It's in
NJ. I have not seen it. 

Contact: Roberta Shontz email: gotmilk@xxxxxxxxxx.com

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- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:18:27 EST
From: fruitbat54@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Flooring Questions

Three years ago we replaced the carpet in our '77 Tradewind with a new, sage 
green short shag. It's warm and cozy underfoot and we love the way it feels 
in the morning.

We travel with 3 dogs, including a lovable 17-year-old who is having trouble 
remembering to go outside to pee. After one accident too many, we are 
reluctantly considering alternatives to carpet. We're not interested in wood or 
laminate floors, and that seems to leave us with a choice of cork, tile or sheet 
goods. Given the complexity of the floor layout, installing sheet goods would 
seem very difficult. We're currently on the road for a couple of months and 
cork seems like too much of a project to take on right now. 

If we're going to do anything before our return home, it would probably be 
tile. I looked at tile choices at Home Depot and it appeared that conventional 
tile might add too much weight to the A/S. The peel-and-stick variety is 
considerably lighter, but I'm not convinced that it will stay stuck to the floor. 
The floor in our Tradewind is 1/2" plywood that has quite a bit of flex to 
it. I sealed the top surface with 2 coats of penetrating epoxy before we 
installed the new carpet.

Has anyone successfully used peel-and-stick tiles in a '70's A/S? Does 
anyone have any peel-and-stick horror stories, or installation tips? Any other 
suggestions?

Thanks for your help.

Lincoln Soule
'77 Tradewind

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:49:53 EST
From: fruitbat54@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Peel and Stick Tiles

I posted my tile questions before I had read the posts from Molly and Stuart 
in yesterday's digest. (Note to self: read the digest before you post.) 
Molly, you are absolutely right, there are more important things in life than a 
couple of loose tiles. 

Since I haven't made the commitment to peel-and-stick yet myself, I'm 
rethinking the idea. Thanks to Molly, I can avoid installing them in cold weather, 
but now I'm wondering whether they are suitable for an environment that 
experiences wide temperature swings. During the winter, it's not unusual for our A/S 
to see temperatures of -15 and in the summer, it will see the high '90's. 

Is there anyone who has installed peel-and-stick tiles and had them not 
shrink and stay stuck for a period of several years while exposed to wide 
temperature variations?

Thanks again,

Lincoln Soule
'77 Tradewind

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:37:00 -0600
From: "William Durkee" 
Subject: Re: [VAL] Frame Seperation

From: "Mr. Joy H. Hansen" 
Reply-To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
To: 
Subject: Re: [VAL] Frame Seperation
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:54:12 -0500

William,

I have a '69 Safari and the condition you describe had more to do with
water/corrosion than anything else. ...
Regards,
'69 Safari, Joy


Joy,

Thanks so much for the information. I understood about service bulletin # 
146 but did want to know if there was issues with not repairing immediatly. 
The key here as you pointed out in your email is the holding tank housing is 
loose on the curb side. I am sure once I get under it I will find rust and 
water damage issures. Wow, I am feeling a little overwhelmed. Was hoping to 
get a little use out of her this summer but it may have to wait.

Bill

_________________________________________________________________
Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and 
beyond. http://special.msn.com/network/celebrateromance.armx

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:46:15 -0500
From: "Hopson Murfee" 
Subject: RE: [VAL] Lost the archives....

Daisy, The photo link is below. I think this must be the one you mentioned.
Hop and Genia Murfee '70 Overlander 27'


http://www.vintageairstream.com/archives/

- - -----Original Message-----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com [mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com]
On Behalf Of Daisy Welch
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 11:20 PM
To: VAL list
Subject: [VAL] Lost the archives....

OK, I can't remember where the site is that has all the years and models 
with pictures.....

I want to see if the table I scooped up off the ground at the 
International in VT is a '69.

Or, who's got a 69 Caravel who can take a picture ?

Daisy

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- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 12:49:54 -0500
From: "Mr. Joy H. Hansen" 
Subject: Re: [VAL] Frame Seperation

Hi William,

Just a short word of advice you didn't ask for. Airstream restoration is a
long term commitment and seldom allows use of the unit. Some do by tearing
out the bathroom, replacing the floor, and securing the frame to the
monocoque, and then just use the trailer san bathroom/holding tank. But
like other issues, allowing the holding tank to bounce in a deteriorated
housing ruins the foam around the tank, breaks the toilet and air vent
outlets, etc. Best to remove the housing/tank, etc. along with the bath and
work on things at your leisure. Use a Blue Boy to catch gray water and a
porta potty for other issuances. :)

All this said, "I" would always buy a serviceable travel trailer to do what
you bought the Airstream for - to camp! The Airstream will be for learning
maintenance and restoration for one to two years. Then sell the serviceable
travel trailer and do your thing in the restored Airstream.

This is the reason I bought the '74 Argosy as it seemed road worthy. Found
out later that it is marginal, but I'm using it anyway. Might try to sell
it later this year to recover some of my investment. Everything works
except for a nagging open ground for a front DC light circuit, and the fold
out step. Just to show how much work goes into these things. I observed
that pex plumbing was installed (not so, just made to look like it was
installed) so, I had to replace all plumbing, pump, water heater, and repair
the commode as a replacement is not available. Replace one gate valve on
the black water tank, constantly repair lighting fixtures inside and out,
keep replacing rivets from an improperly installed roof AC, try to find the
zillion leaks from loose skin rivets, change out the charger, . . .
Well, you get the idea. One leak that took me a long time to find was holes
drilled under the Argosy name plate! Someone moved the plate for more
secure mounting and didn't fill the old holes. Never know about previous
owner fixes. :(

Well, I should talk. I've invented a zillion ways to get the job done that
aren't covered in any manual. Like removing the bathroom paneling to get at
the rear light bezel wires. Learned that a "rotozip" with a metal cutting
bit works wonders on cutting out sections of interior skin. Well, it does
well for some floor repairs where a circular saw just won't fit. Only way
I've found to remove the floor between the inverted aluminum "U" at the
bottom of the monocoque and the out riggers or frame is with an electric
drill and patience.

Gotta go as I think the Safari is calling me . . .

Regards,

'69
Safari, Joy
- - ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "William Durkee" 

> Thanks so much for the information. I understood about service bulletin
#
> 146 but did want to know if there was issues with not repairing
immediatly.
> The key here as you pointed out in your email is the holding tank housing
is
> loose on the curb side. I am sure once I get under it I will find rust
and
> water damage issures. Wow, I am feeling a little overwhelmed. Was hoping
to
> get a little use out of her this summer but it may have to wait.
>
> Bill

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:00:56 -0800
From: "Gary Quamen" 
Subject: Re: [VAL] Frame Seperation

> It is obvious that the 69 Sovereign is suffering from frame seperation.
The
> bumper is hanging down about 1 inch below the body. If I step lightly on
> the bumper it will move seperatly from the body. When does it become
> mandatory to fix the problem? Can I continue to use the trailer? Will
this
> cause further damage?
>
> There is another repair I heard of Frame Stiffeners. Is this a good idea?
> Is it required? What is to be expected it Stiffeners are not added?
>
> Bill Durkee
> 1969 Sovereign
> 03 Ram 1500 Quad

Hi Bill:

It sounds to me that you may be mixing two quite different problems here.
One problem (tail droop) involves failure of the frame in the vicinity of
the axles and is fixed by installing stiffener plates to reinforce it. This
fix is covered by Bulletin No. 29 - Main Frame Reinforcement.

The other problem is that of frame separation where the frame integrity is
OK but the body has become disconnected from the frame due to failure of the
fasteners that connect them. This fix is covered by Bulletin No. 1 - Shell
to Chassis Separation 1968 through 1972 Models. This fix is somewhat
different for the 1968 (and earlier I suppose) and the 1969 and later
models. Each require access to the body channel / frame fasteners by either
de-riveting skin near the problem and peeling it back ('68) or cutting an
access hole through it ('69+).

Sounds like you have a disconnected body but are you sure you don't have
frame failure as well? It's the "If I step lightly on the bumper it will
move...." part that I would look at. Make sure the whole side of the
trailer is moving up and down when you step on it and not just the part with
the bumper on it.

GQ '67 Safari
4082 in CA

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:27:04 -0500
From: Alexkensington@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] Peel and Stick Tiles

I have the peel and stick tiles in my 66 safari and they stay down fine. They must be 
fitted well and not forced too tightly togther, as they will buckle when really hot. I 
mean really hot like in direct florida sun. If you are forcing them together, that's 
too tight. Their biggest advange is the adhesive is not responsive to water, so leaks 
don't result in loose tiles.