The Vintage Airstream E-mail ListDigest Archive Files
VAL Digest V1 #155
VAL Digest Wednesday, February 11 2004 Volume 01 : Number 155
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Topics in Today's Digest:
RE: [VAL] Frame Separation
[VAL] For Sale
RE: [VAL] For Sale
[VAL] Flooring Questions
[VAL] Peel and Stick Tiles
Re: [VAL] Frame Seperation
RE: [VAL] Lost the archives....
Re: [VAL] Frame Seperation
Re: [VAL] Frame Seperation
Re: [VAL] Peel and Stick Tiles
Re: [VAL] Lost the archives....
[VAL] Fresh water and Black Water Tanks and fittings
[VAL] What kind of hole is there?
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:35:53 -0500
From: "Gary L.\"Snook\" Hoffman" <thesnookman@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: RE: [VAL] Frame Separation
What Joy has stated is true... Those are not ramblings but accurate general
truisms on what to look for and how to fix it.
Gary L. "Snook" Hoffman
69 Safari being reconfigured, (not restored) to Mobile Hunt/Fish Camp.
- -----Original Message-----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com
[mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com]On Behalf Of Mr. Joy H. Hansen
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 12:54 AM
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] Frame Seperation
William,
I have a '69 Safari and the condition you describe had more to do with
water/corrosion than anything else. If you notice considerable rust on the
skid rails, feel the floor around the holding tank. It's my opinion that
the condition is caused when NO seal is between the plate on top of the
bumper frame allows water to run back onto the wood floor. Any rivet, etc.
would fail under continual soaking with water and the rotting floor
exacerbates the problem. If your Airstream spent it's entire life in a high
desert, then none of my experiences are applicable. Or, the Sovergn is in
the 30 foot class and didn't have reinforcing plates mounted aft of the
axles, the sag is most likely from bad engineering.
You asked if you could use the Airstream without damage. I would say that
the structural damage you will do could ruin it. All the structural
components act to gather to make a sound structure. Remove one, and it's
like a house of cards. Broken skin rivets loose stringers, bows, and
buckled skin, etc. Like damage from running with sagging axles. '69 is the
last year that the Henchen axle torsion rubber deteriorates. Sometime in
'69 there was a change. Mine happened to have the trashy wimpy torsion
rubber. The new axle is waiting to be installed. It's a Dexter axle with
the large brake drums, oval magnets, and a parking brake mechanism. Bad
axles, like unbalanced wheels will destroy the Airstream structure.
Most likely, you'll find that the floor is rotted across the entire rear.
The floor is sandwiched between the iron cross brace on the bottom(welded to
the frame at both ends) and an inverted aluminum "u" channel on the top.
When the floor is gone, it's possible for the rivets to prevent total
separation. With the amount of separation, you should be able to feel the
rivets. There are also bolts that protrude through the lower cross brace.
These do not have anything to do with holding the body to the frame! The
floor is bolted to the bottom cross brace as it is on all out riggers. The
inverted "U" channel is "screwed" to the floor in most areas. Across the
front and rear, clinch rivets through the entire sandwich were used. The
frame was installed in sections. Where these sections join on the floor, I
found huge gaps that allowed vermin to enter the monocoque insulation
through out the trailer. :(
Another common construction failure is when the trim strip around the bottom
of the trailer hides the fact that the skin stops just above the floor and
the banana curves direct the drips to the floor. More continual rot. I
added a splash shield to prevent this kind of damage to my replacement
floor.
My fix was to remove the bathroom and replace the floor. Had to drive it
between the upper "U" and a new brace I welded below. Found a similar
situation around the water heater and at the front and rear of the wheel
wells. You might guess that I removed the guts of the trailer to effect
these repairs. Most restorer's would have trashed a unit in as bad shape as
mine was, but I was new to the scene and went ahead anyway. Also, I removed
the interior skin by cutting about 6 inches off the floor to get at the two
types of fasteners. Those that bolt the floor to the frame and those that
screw the monocoque to the floor. At one time I had drawings and pictures,
but that was a couple of years ago and a couple of computer crashes.
If you don't have rust, haven't lost or replaced the holding tank housing,
and there's no evidence of floor rot, disregard all of my experiences.
My '74 Argosy has an entirely different means to attach the monocoque to the
floor and the frame in the front and rear. Airstream engineers must have
learned something. Much easier to replace the floor in the front and rear.
Yet, the same conditions caused much of the rotting floor damage. Like the
banana curve directing the water inside the belly - causes a lot of rust to
the out riggers, etc. Soggy insulation holds the water for a long time and
compromises rivets, etc.
Unfortunately, I tend to ramble. Hope you get something out of my writings.
Much of it is worth about 2 cents. Then, I have two units undergoing
continual restoration and I have and continue to learn a lot.
Harvey Barlow helped me immensely when I started, but I haven't seen a post
from him for a couple of years. Looks like there are lots of mentors on the
valist to keep the restorations on track.
Regards,
'69 Safari, Joy
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "William Durkee" <bdkli@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 11:16 AM
Subject: [VAL] Frame Seperation
> It is obvious that the 69 Sovereign is suffering from frame seperation.
The
> bumper is hanging down about 1 inch below the body. If I step lightly on
> the bumper it will move seperatly from the body. When does it become
> mandatory to fix the problem? Can I continue to use the trailer? Will
this
> cause further damage?
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:51:41 -0500
From: "Chris Herring" <cherring@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] For Sale
A woman contacted me about a '67 Ambassador for sale. $2,000. It's in
NJ. I have not seen it.
Contact: Roberta Shontz email: gotmilk@xxxxxxxxxx.com
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:04:25 -0500
From: "Vasquez, David" <DVASQUEZ@mta-esa.org>
Subject: RE: [VAL] For Sale
Greetings Chris;
Did she give you any info on the AS.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Herring [mailto:cherring@xxxxxxxxxx.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 7:52 AM
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] For Sale
A woman contacted me about a '67 Ambassador for sale. $2,000. It's in
NJ. I have not seen it.
Contact: Roberta Shontz email: gotmilk@xxxxxxxxxx.com
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:18:27 EST
From: fruitbat54@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Flooring Questions
Three years ago we replaced the carpet in our '77 Tradewind with a new, sage
green short shag. It's warm and cozy underfoot and we love the way it feels
in the morning.
We travel with 3 dogs, including a lovable 17-year-old who is having trouble
remembering to go outside to pee. After one accident too many, we are
reluctantly considering alternatives to carpet. We're not interested in wood or
laminate floors, and that seems to leave us with a choice of cork, tile or sheet
goods. Given the complexity of the floor layout, installing sheet goods would
seem very difficult. We're currently on the road for a couple of months and
cork seems like too much of a project to take on right now.
If we're going to do anything before our return home, it would probably be
tile. I looked at tile choices at Home Depot and it appeared that conventional
tile might add too much weight to the A/S. The peel-and-stick variety is
considerably lighter, but I'm not convinced that it will stay stuck to the floor.
The floor in our Tradewind is 1/2" plywood that has quite a bit of flex to
it. I sealed the top surface with 2 coats of penetrating epoxy before we
installed the new carpet.
Has anyone successfully used peel-and-stick tiles in a '70's A/S? Does
anyone have any peel-and-stick horror stories, or installation tips? Any other
suggestions?
Thanks for your help.
Lincoln Soule
'77 Tradewind
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:49:53 EST
From: fruitbat54@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Peel and Stick Tiles
I posted my tile questions before I had read the posts from Molly and Stuart
in yesterday's digest. (Note to self: read the digest before you post.)
Molly, you are absolutely right, there are more important things in life than a
couple of loose tiles.
Since I haven't made the commitment to peel-and-stick yet myself, I'm
rethinking the idea. Thanks to Molly, I can avoid installing them in cold weather,
but now I'm wondering whether they are suitable for an environment that
experiences wide temperature swings. During the winter, it's not unusual for our A/S
to see temperatures of -15 and in the summer, it will see the high '90's.
Is there anyone who has installed peel-and-stick tiles and had them not
shrink and stay stuck for a period of several years while exposed to wide
temperature variations?
Thanks again,
Lincoln Soule
'77 Tradewind
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:37:00 -0600
From: "William Durkee" <bdkli@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Frame Seperation
From: "Mr. Joy H. Hansen" <joytbrew@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Reply-To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Frame Seperation
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:54:12 -0500
William,
I have a '69 Safari and the condition you describe had more to do with
water/corrosion than anything else. ...
Regards,
'69 Safari, Joy
Joy,
Thanks so much for the information. I understood about service bulletin #
146 but did want to know if there was issues with not repairing immediatly.
The key here as you pointed out in your email is the holding tank housing is
loose on the curb side. I am sure once I get under it I will find rust and
water damage issures. Wow, I am feeling a little overwhelmed. Was hoping to
get a little use out of her this summer but it may have to wait.
Bill
_________________________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:46:15 -0500
From: "Hopson Murfee" <hmurfee@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: RE: [VAL] Lost the archives....
Daisy, The photo link is below. I think this must be the one you mentioned.
Hop and Genia Murfee '70 Overlander 27'
http://www.vintageairstream.com/archives/
- -----Original Message-----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com [mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com]
On Behalf Of Daisy Welch
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 11:20 PM
To: VAL list
Subject: [VAL] Lost the archives....
OK, I can't remember where the site is that has all the years and models
with pictures.....
I want to see if the table I scooped up off the ground at the
International in VT is a '69.
Or, who's got a 69 Caravel who can take a picture ?
Daisy
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 12:49:54 -0500
From: "Mr. Joy H. Hansen" <joytbrew@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Frame Seperation
Hi William,
Just a short word of advice you didn't ask for. Airstream restoration is a
long term commitment and seldom allows use of the unit. Some do by tearing
out the bathroom, replacing the floor, and securing the frame to the
monocoque, and then just use the trailer san bathroom/holding tank. But
like other issues, allowing the holding tank to bounce in a deteriorated
housing ruins the foam around the tank, breaks the toilet and air vent
outlets, etc. Best to remove the housing/tank, etc. along with the bath and
work on things at your leisure. Use a Blue Boy to catch gray water and a
porta potty for other issuances. :)
All this said, "I" would always buy a serviceable travel trailer to do what
you bought the Airstream for - to camp! The Airstream will be for learning
maintenance and restoration for one to two years. Then sell the serviceable
travel trailer and do your thing in the restored Airstream.
This is the reason I bought the '74 Argosy as it seemed road worthy. Found
out later that it is marginal, but I'm using it anyway. Might try to sell
it later this year to recover some of my investment. Everything works
except for a nagging open ground for a front DC light circuit, and the fold
out step. Just to show how much work goes into these things. I observed
that pex plumbing was installed (not so, just made to look like it was
installed) so, I had to replace all plumbing, pump, water heater, and repair
the commode as a replacement is not available. Replace one gate valve on
the black water tank, constantly repair lighting fixtures inside and out,
keep replacing rivets from an improperly installed roof AC, try to find the
zillion leaks from loose skin rivets, change out the charger, . . .
Well, you get the idea. One leak that took me a long time to find was holes
drilled under the Argosy name plate! Someone moved the plate for more
secure mounting and didn't fill the old holes. Never know about previous
owner fixes. :(
Well, I should talk. I've invented a zillion ways to get the job done that
aren't covered in any manual. Like removing the bathroom paneling to get at
the rear light bezel wires. Learned that a "rotozip" with a metal cutting
bit works wonders on cutting out sections of interior skin. Well, it does
well for some floor repairs where a circular saw just won't fit. Only way
I've found to remove the floor between the inverted aluminum "U" at the
bottom of the monocoque and the out riggers or frame is with an electric
drill and patience.
Gotta go as I think the Safari is calling me . . .
Regards,
'69
Safari, Joy
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "William Durkee" <bdkli@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
> Thanks so much for the information. I understood about service bulletin
#
> 146 but did want to know if there was issues with not repairing
immediatly.
> The key here as you pointed out in your email is the holding tank housing
is
> loose on the curb side. I am sure once I get under it I will find rust
and
> water damage issures. Wow, I am feeling a little overwhelmed. Was hoping
to
> get a little use out of her this summer but it may have to wait.
>
> Bill
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:00:56 -0800
From: "Gary Quamen" <g_quamen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Frame Seperation
> It is obvious that the 69 Sovereign is suffering from frame seperation.
The
> bumper is hanging down about 1 inch below the body. If I step lightly on
> the bumper it will move seperatly from the body. When does it become
> mandatory to fix the problem? Can I continue to use the trailer? Will
this
> cause further damage?
>
> There is another repair I heard of Frame Stiffeners. Is this a good idea?
> Is it required? What is to be expected it Stiffeners are not added?
>
> Bill Durkee
> 1969 Sovereign
> 03 Ram 1500 Quad
Hi Bill:
It sounds to me that you may be mixing two quite different problems here.
One problem (tail droop) involves failure of the frame in the vicinity of
the axles and is fixed by installing stiffener plates to reinforce it. This
fix is covered by Bulletin No. 29 - Main Frame Reinforcement.
The other problem is that of frame separation where the frame integrity is
OK but the body has become disconnected from the frame due to failure of the
fasteners that connect them. This fix is covered by Bulletin No. 1 - Shell
to Chassis Separation 1968 through 1972 Models. This fix is somewhat
different for the 1968 (and earlier I suppose) and the 1969 and later
models. Each require access to the body channel / frame fasteners by either
de-riveting skin near the problem and peeling it back ('68) or cutting an
access hole through it ('69+).
Sounds like you have a disconnected body but are you sure you don't have
frame failure as well? It's the "If I step lightly on the bumper it will
move...." part that I would look at. Make sure the whole side of the
trailer is moving up and down when you step on it and not just the part with
the bumper on it.
GQ '67 Safari
4082 in CA
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:27:04 -0500
From: Alexkensington@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] Peel and Stick Tiles
I have the peel and stick tiles in my 66 safari and they stay down fine. They must be
fitted well and not forced too tightly togther, as they will buckle when really hot. I
mean really hot like in direct florida sun. If you are forcing them together, that's
too tight. Their biggest advange is the adhesive is not responsive to water, so leaks
don't result in loose tiles.
I have a black and white checkerboard pattern in my rear bath which everyone loves, and
goes well with the seafoam green fixtures.
Before I put down the Mop&glow, they looked filthy fast. I hated them, and wanted to
change the pattern out. They stay bright and clean now, with the product.
The best thing about the peel & stick tiles is they adhere (sic) to the first rule
of restoring anything. "Never do anything you can't undo." When you want to change out
even individual tiles, you just heat them up with a hair dryer and you can, with a scraper,
get them up without too much trouble. That, and being able to get them amost anywhere,
makes for an easy fix while out on the road. And since I will be performing all over the
country this year, that's important.
Alex In Melbourne (instead of Indiana)
66 Safari & Overlander
#8728
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Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:01:31 -0500
From: Daisy Welch <jtdjtd@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Lost the archives....
Thanks Bill, having one of those windy days in the brain...
Daisy
William Kerfoot wrote:
> Daisy,
>
> Try this:
>
> http://www.vintageairstream.com/archives/index.html
>
> RJ Dial has the site, former webmaster for the Vintage Airstream Club site.
>
> Bill Kerfoot
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:17:37 -0500
From: "Edward Emerick" <EEMERICK@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: [VAL] Fresh water and Black Water Tanks and fittings
Hello All,
Has anyone installed an above the floor black water tank or a Valterra
fresh water tank? I am looking for photos of the fittings installed or a
description of what I would need to obtain to complete the project. I'm
not sure what I need as far as dump valves or fittings to empty a black
water tank. With the fresh water tank I am looking for the parts list to
complete the fill and drain and pump lines. Also any resources for these
parts would be appreciated.
Thanks
Ed
WBCCI/VAC/TCT
68 Sovereign
59 Traveler
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Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 00:42:34 -0500
From: <Balloon@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] What kind of hole is there?
Just purchase a 1969 27' Overlander. It has the original Bay Breeze AC unit
up top. I was told by the seller that it works, kinda hard to test in 15
degree
weather here in Va. My plans (I know it sounds crazy) is to take the working
AC unit and replace it with the one on my 1966 Overlander (I like keeping
the
look of the original). I figure between the one thats on the 1966, the spare
that
was giving to me by a fellow VAC member (thank you) and the one off the
1969 Overlander, I should be able to make a good one. The question is,
What kinda hole will be left in the roof of the 1969? Will it be the
standard
round corner vent type hole? I figure I can fill the hole with a vent unit.
If I remember correctly, the guy from Fantasic Vent said they cut the round
corners out to be square. Any thoughts, or am I just nuts? It's O.K. to say
I'm nuts!
Paul Waddell
WBCCI/VAC/WDCU 1270
66' Overlander
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End of VAL Digest V1 #155
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