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VAL Digest V1 #143



VAL Digest          Friday, January 30 2004          Volume 01 : Number 143




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Topics in Today's Digest:

Re: VAL Digest V1 #141 / Re: [VAL] Re: "Alligator Clip" Grounding Strap / Trailer Frame Grounding
Re: VAL Digest V1 #141 / Re: [VAL] Re: "Alligator Clip"  Grounding Strap / Trailer Frame Grounding
[VAL] Sandwiched Flooring
RE: [VAL] Electric Choices
[VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #142 - More grounds
Re: [VAL] Sandwiched Flooring
Re: [VAL] Electric Choices
Re: [VAL] Electric Choices
Re: [VAL] Electric Choices
Re: [VAL] Electric Choices
Re: [VAL] Electric Choices
Re: [VAL] Electric Choices
RE: [VAL] Electric Choices
Re: [VAL] Electric Choices
RE: [VAL] Electric Choices
[VAL] Generators - some good deals, lots of choices here
Re: [VAL] Electric Choices
Re: VAL Digest V1 #141 / Re: [VAL] Re: "Alligator Clip"  Grounding Strap / Trailer Frame Grounding
Re: [VAL] Sandwiched Flooring
Re: [VAL] Electric Choices
Re: [VAL] Electric Choices
Re: [VAL] Generators - some good deals, lots of choices here
Re: [VAL] Electric Choices
Re: [VAL] Sandwiched Flooring
RE: [VAL] Sandwiched Flooring

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 07:37:16 +0000
From: hex-n-tex@xxxxxxxxxx.net
Subject: Re: VAL Digest V1 #141 / Re: [VAL] Re: "Alligator Clip" Grounding Strap / Trailer Frame Grounding

And herein lies the problem with almost every discussion group or forum that 
I have ever sought knowledge from......It is my "uneducated" view that these 
two statements contradict. However I sincerely appreciate the quick responses.
I don't think I'm smart enough to own an Airstream !
Thanks again.
++HeX++




Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 08:56:46 -0600
From: waymark1@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #141 - Grounding

>"According to modern standards neither the neutral nor ground
>bus in the panel is supposed to be connected to the trailer body or
>frame."
>Al
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:44:52 -0600
>From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
>Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #141 - Grounding

>The ground is supposed to be connected to ALL
>exposed metal parts of the trailer that are not current carrying. That
>means outlet boxes, main panel box, frame, aluminum shell, aluminum
>interior and all metal appliances and water pipes.

>Gerald J.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:04:17 -0500
From: "T o m" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: VAL Digest V1 #141 / Re: [VAL] Re: "Alligator Clip"  Grounding Strap / Trailer Frame Grounding

There is no contradiction.  The "key words" here are: "neutral nor ground".
This is in reference to hooking up your trailer to an AC power source -
*NOT* the 12vdc power battery source.

The subject being discussed is AC current, *not* DC current.  That is the
difference.  IF you were using 12vdc current you would then want to ground
the negative side ( - ) to the frame or body of the trailer.

However, with 120vac the ground needs to come into and then out of the
trailer *back to the AC source* - for safety - to keep any accidental
discharge from killing you or someone else.

Tom
WBCCI 5303

From: <hex-n-tex@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: VAL Digest V1 #141 / Re: [VAL] Re: "Alligator Clip" Grounding
Strap / Trailer Frame Grounding
> And herein lies the problem with almost every discussion group or forum
that
> I have ever sought knowledge from......It is my "uneducated" view that
these
> two statements contradict. However I sincerely appreciate the quick
responses.
> I don't think I'm smart enough to own an Airstream !
> Thanks again.
> ++HeX++

> From: waymark1@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #141 - Grounding
> >"According to modern standards neither the neutral nor ground
> >bus in the panel is supposed to be connected to the trailer body or
> >frame."
> >Al

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 08:47:22 -0500
From: "Louis Joyner" <joyner@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Sandwiched Flooring

Oh Jeffrey, you should know better than to ask people for their opinions.
Especially in this context.

But here's mine:  Aluminum plate could make a great floor, but substituting
a new material for the plywood will open a can of worms you may prefer not
to deal with.  Leaving aside the weight question, you have issues of
thickness of material, galvanic corrosion where aluminum meets steel,
fasteners, relative strenght of aluminum vs. pywood ....A potentially much
longer list.  Much of it has to do with how the AS was assembled, and how
parts depend on one another structurally.

Sort through your intentions, then see if the exercise will meet them.

Louis Joyner

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 07:50:06 -0700
From: "Polly Pulver" <jppolly@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: RE: [VAL] Electric Choices

Sherry who is also in Arizona, I think, uses a set up such as you are
considerig.  I don't know if she is on the list anymore, but she uses a
flexible solar panel of the type that are used for sailboats, and puts it
outside each day.  She runs her laptop with it as well as lights and says
it does fine if she uses electricity carefully.


> [Original Message]
> From: Kathy Hunt <khunt@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
> To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
> Date: 1/28/04 10:04:59 PM
> Subject: [VAL] Electric Choices
>
> I've been  considering some kind of electric generator.  I've seen the
regular
> gas operated but also the Solar type.
> I believe somewhere a year or so ago the flexible solar panels were
> discussed.
>
> Do any of you  have the soft kind that can be hung up or laid against
> something to charge?  The one I saw was $199. and had a Rated  Power of 32
> watts. Was said to be a trickle charger.
>
> Would that keep my battery up- to run my computer and TV if I'm in a sunny
> location such as Arizona? I do not have an Air Conditioner.
>
> Until  now I have just plugged into the car  every night  to equalize the
> trailer battery with the  car battery.  I drive  somewhere everyday and
that
> recharges the car.  Works pretty good most of the time.
>
> In your opinions would I be better off with solar(any size) or a gas
powered
> generator and what size and make?
>
> I'm using with my  16 ft. Bambi.
>
> Thanks for any help you can give me.
>
> Kathy from Woodburn now Boondocking in Arizona
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 04:54:28 -0600
From: waymark1@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #142 - More grounds

"I mean a jumper wire from the green ground of the receptacle to the
metal box. No other jumper."
That's what any green or bare jumper wire should be.
However, if the metal box is not itself grounded a jumper from the green
ground terminal on the receptacle won't do any good. That's why 2 wire +
ground wire is the only way to go in new wiring. All the older ideas are
inadequate by themselves: grounding thru metal conduit, polarization.
Still, most modern small appliances such as toasters, lamps, and the like
are polarized only, no grounding or double insulation. The cord should be
connected so that the shell of a light socket is connected to the
neutral.
And of course GFIs in the bathroom, kitchen and exterior receptacle
circuits. Not every receptacle, just the first from the breaker in each
circuit.
My trailer has a GFI in the bathroom which feeds the two exterior
receptacles. It should have a GFI in the kitchen convenience circuit but
doesn't.

Al 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:44:50 -0600
> From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" 
> <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #141 - Grounding, GFIs
> 
> I mean a jumper wire from the green ground of the receptacle to the
metal box. No other jumper.
> 
> Generally the threshold of perception of 60 Hz current is 12 to 15
milliamps, so the 5 milliamp trip of the GFI is below that threshold.
> 
> Gerald J.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 11:17:08 +0900
> From: Jeffrey Fryckman <fryckman@xxxxxxxxxx.att.ne.jp>
> Subject: Re: [VAL] Sandwiched flooring
> 
> Thanks for all the advice on sandwich flooring.  I get the message, but
actually what I originally asked about was solid aluminum plating (my
uncle used it in his race car trailer and said it weighed the same) as a
substitute.  Anyone have an opinions on/experience with this?
> 
> Jeff

If it's the diamond tread sort of aluminum decking sheet its thickness
doesn't match the original plywood. You'd need to shim it up to put its
top even with where the top of the original plywood was so everything
would line up.
I'd expect aluminum decking floor to feel awfully cold compared to
plywood.
If mildewing and rotting of the plywood floor is the problem then going
to a water resistant grade of plywood, or thorough treatment of the
plywood with Thompson's Water Seal or similar product, or both, is the
most practical thing to do. Plywood has a solid feel under the feet if
it's of adequate thickness like 5/8" or 3/4", thoroughly bolted down to
the frame.
I hope that weight reduction efforts are concentrated in the upper parts
of the trailer first before lightening of the floor, frame and other
parts low down. Just as a house needs a good solid foundation and floor
structure a trailer or motor home needs a solid floor and frame. These
house vehicles are not monocoque (unibody). If the frame flexes much it
is hard on the body shell and interior fittings.
Is it any recommendation that Chevy/GMC switched from unibody to separate
body and frame for their vans for 1996-on?
Al

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:29:52 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Sandwiched Flooring

The aluminum plate would be cold underfoot. Aluminum is next to copper
in having a great thermal inertia and a slab thick enough to replace the
bending strength of 3/4 plywood would take a week to change temperature.
Good for cool feet on a hot day if cooled at night, but good for cold
feet in chilly weather.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:24:16 -0800
From: "Gary Quamen" <g_quamen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Electric Choices

> In your opinions would I be better off with solar(any size) or a gas
powered
> generator and what size and make?
>
> I'm using with my  16 ft. Bambi.
>
> Thanks for any help you can give me.
>
> Kathy from Woodburn now Boondocking in Arizona

Hi Kathy:

See you again at Calistoga this year?

If you are talking about boondocking, in my mind there is no contest.
Generator.  My choice is (I have one) a Honda EU 2000i.  Consider that it
will run:

- - Just about any power tool you have
- - A microwave oven
- - A small A/C unit (5000 to 6000 btu)
- - A hairdryer
- - An electric coffee pot
- - Etc...etc...

It will also be available to recharge your trailer battery as well as the
one in your tow vehicle (8 amps @ 12v).

You can use it at home as backup in case of a power outage (like we have in
CA)

It weighs less than 50#

It's very quiet (but still a generator)

It's a very pretty red (with black trim) <grin>.

If you are not talking about boondocking......well....

GQ '67 Safari
4082 in CA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:16:08 -0700
From: "Stan Truitt" <stan.truitt@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Electric Choices

hey gq
having never owned a generator, how do you interface it with your 12v dc
system. in other words, "how do i plug it in?"
harry
66 safari
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary Quamen" <g_quamen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [VAL] Electric Choices


> > In your opinions would I be better off with solar(any size) or a gas
> powered
> > generator and what size and make?
> >
> > I'm using with my  16 ft. Bambi.
> >
> > Thanks for any help you can give me.
> >
> > Kathy from Woodburn now Boondocking in Arizona
>
> Hi Kathy:
>
> See you again at Calistoga this year?
>
> If you are talking about boondocking, in my mind there is no contest.
> Generator.  My choice is (I have one) a Honda EU 2000i.  Consider that it
> will run:
>
> - Just about any power tool you have
> - A microwave oven
> - A small A/C unit (5000 to 6000 btu)
> - A hairdryer
> - An electric coffee pot
> - Etc...etc...
>
> It will also be available to recharge your trailer battery as well as the
> one in your tow vehicle (8 amps @ 12v).
>
> You can use it at home as backup in case of a power outage (like we have
in
> CA)
>
> It weighs less than 50#
>
> It's very quiet (but still a generator)
>
> It's a very pretty red (with black trim) <grin>.
>
> If you are not talking about boondocking......well....
>
> GQ '67 Safari
> 4082 in CA
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 15:00:35 -0800
From: "michelle" <safoocat@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Electric Choices

Through a battery charger unless you have a 12 volt generator
is there a 12 volt generator, anybody know?
best,
Michelle

Our only purpose in life
is to love one another...
And if we can't do that,
try not to hurt each other.
~Dalai Lama~

hey gq
having never owned a generator, how do you interface it with your 12v dc
system. in other words, "how do i plug it in?"
harry
66 safari

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 15:13:32 -0800
From: "chyde" <chyde@primelink1.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Electric Choices

> Through a battery charger unless you have a 12 volt generator
> is there a 12 volt generator, anybody know?
> best,
> Michelle

Yup, I have a 12v Onan generator that was dealer installed in the early 70's
into a 66 Safari. It's  a vertical shaft lawnmower engine converted to run
on propane with a generator mounted where the blade would normally go.
Actually works quite well.
Colin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:42:12 -0800
From: "Gary Quamen" <g_quamen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Electric Choices

> hey gq
> having never owned a generator, how do you interface it with your 12v dc
> system. in other words, "how do i plug it in?"
> harry
> 66 safari

Hello Harry:

If you want to charge a battery there is a special cord that plugs into the
front of the generator.  The other end is a pair of battery clips. It
charges at 8 amps or so.

For the trailer, I run an extension cord between the generator and the 30
amp cord supply cord for the trailer.  The trailer doesn't know that it is
not hooked up to "normal" AC.  The trailer systems work as they always do
120VAC at the plugs and 12VDC at the lights etc.  The Univolt or whatever
you have charges the battery.  I find that a 15 minute hookup to the
generator this way will recharge an evenings worth of lights and maybe a  CD
movie watched on my laptop.  Or a little TV (the news) with my 9" 12V color
TV (48W).  I do use little propane single mantle lamps as much as possible
to keep the usage low.  If I need a batch of microwave popcorn (big current
draw) I start the generator for 5 minutes (a quick pull).  I keep the
generator on a shelf in the back of my truck inside the shell.  Just open a
side window, the rear hatch, and let 'er rip. Can barely be heard 10 feet
away, but it CAN be heard.

Nothing to it really.

GQ '67 Safari
4022 in CA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 15:41:33 -0700
From: "Stan Truitt" <stan.truitt@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Electric Choices

>If you want to charge a battery there is a special cord that plugs into the
front of the generator.  The other end is a pair of battery clips. It
charges at 8 amps or so.<

thanks for the education gq,
any suggestions on the best place to get a deal on that honda generator. it
has been my experience that although honda's quality is excellent, they tend
to control their markets and suppress dealers from discounting. in other
words a bit of "price fixing".
thanks again
harry
66 safari
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary Quamen" <g_quamen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [VAL] Electric Choices


> > hey gq
> > having never owned a generator, how do you interface it with your 12v dc
> > system. in other words, "how do i plug it in?"
> > harry
> > 66 safari
>
> Hello Harry:
>
> If you want to charge a battery there is a special cord that plugs into
the
> front of the generator.  The other end is a pair of battery clips. It
> charges at 8 amps or so.
>
> For the trailer, I run an extension cord between the generator and the 30
> amp cord supply cord for the trailer.  The trailer doesn't know that it is
> not hooked up to "normal" AC.  The trailer systems work as they always do
> 120VAC at the plugs and 12VDC at the lights etc.  The Univolt or whatever
> you have charges the battery.  I find that a 15 minute hookup to the
> generator this way will recharge an evenings worth of lights and maybe a
CD
> movie watched on my laptop.  Or a little TV (the news) with my 9" 12V
color
> TV (48W).  I do use little propane single mantle lamps as much as possible
> to keep the usage low.  If I need a batch of microwave popcorn (big
current
> draw) I start the generator for 5 minutes (a quick pull).  I keep the
> generator on a shelf in the back of my truck inside the shell.  Just open
a
> side window, the rear hatch, and let 'er rip. Can barely be heard 10 feet
> away, but it CAN be heard.
>
> Nothing to it really.
>
> GQ '67 Safari
> 4022 in CA
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:56:24 -0500
From: "Peter Ryner" <pryner@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: RE: [VAL] Electric Choices

I couldn't agree more with the EU2000!  I've had one for a year and a half
now and love it.  I boodnock in the winter to hunt in the northwest.  Even
at 8000' elevation it ran perfectly and was very quiet.  Started every
morning even in freezing weather.  I could run my microwave, computer,
lights etc., and still charge my battery.  (BTW, also recommend the optima
battery, ran the heat for 12 hours and never let me down.)  Unfortunately,
the 2000 won't power my original A/C in my '68 28', but I really didn't
expect it to be able to.  One of the best features of this model is that you
can put two of them together and get 4000W of power which will run the AC!
After looking at the cost of two 2000EUs and one 3000EU, the two won hands
down.  Only about $100 more, together they weigh less than the 3000 and I
get the extra power.  If you decide to get two, watch the price of the
cables.  Some places are getting more than $200!  I found several sites with
directions to make you own for a fraction of the cost.  Since the generators
are electronically controlled, they automatically sync so a simple connector
is easy to make.
Pete

> In your opinions would I be better off with solar(any size) or a gas
powered
> generator and what size and make?
>
> I'm using with my  16 ft. Bambi.
>
> Thanks for any help you can give me.
>
> Kathy from Woodburn now Boondocking in Arizona

Hi Kathy:

See you again at Calistoga this year?

If you are talking about boondocking, in my mind there is no contest.
Generator.  My choice is (I have one) a Honda EU 2000i.  Consider that it
will run:

- - Just about any power tool you have
- - A microwave oven
- - A small A/C unit (5000 to 6000 btu)
- - A hairdryer
- - An electric coffee pot
- - Etc...etc...

It will also be available to recharge your trailer battery as well as the
one in your tow vehicle (8 amps @ 12v).

You can use it at home as backup in case of a power outage (like we have in
CA)

It weighs less than 50#

It's very quiet (but still a generator)

It's a very pretty red (with black trim) <grin>.

If you are not talking about boondocking......well....

GQ '67 Safari
4082 in CA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 15:22:36 -0800
From: "Gary Quamen" <g_quamen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Electric Choices

> thanks for the education gq,
> any suggestions on the best place to get a deal on that honda generator.
it
> has been my experience that although honda's quality is excellent, they
tend
> to control their markets and suppress dealers from discounting. in other
> words a bit of "price fixing".
> thanks again
> harry
> 66 safari

Hi again Harry:

I got mine in June of   '02 from: Alamia, Inc of Denver (
http://www.alamia.com ) They sell power equipment of various types.  At the
time they offered free shipping on this model.  I just now looked at the
site and they are a little more guarded than they used to be.  I couldn't
see that they offered free shipping on this model at this time.  They do
offer it on some other models, I noticed.  Unless you are from CO there is
not sales tax (no small amount of $$)  At the time, the price of my unit was
$845.00.  That was the also the delivered price.  I didn't see the price at
the site.  Don't know why.  They do provide e-mail quotes.  Maybe that's how
they do business these days.  Give them a shot and see what they want for it
now.  Probably is still the best deal around.

I got the 12V charging cord locally for about $15, as I recall.  Haven't had
a chance to use it (knock-knock).

Later,

GQ '67 Safari
4020 in CA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 18:41:01 -0500
From: "Peter Ryner" <pryner@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: RE: [VAL] Electric Choices

Try ebay and a web search with google or webcrawler.  I used "honda
generator" and found a lot of links.  Ebay had a lot of "buy it now" new
generators which were about the same price as buying it from a dealer - in
fact most were dealers.  Be sure to remember "buyer beware" if you buy a
used one.  In the back of Trailer Life magazine, there are two ads for
hondas.  www.mayberrys.com/camping has the 2000i listed for $899 with free
shipping and www.hicklinpower.com doesn't have a price, but their ad says
that "if you didn't buy it from us, you probably paid too much!"  I got mine
from http://hondashop.com about a year and a half ago for $850 and no
shipping cost (or tax).  No financial interest or knowledge of any
particular site.
Pete

any suggestions on the best place to get a deal on that honda generator. it
has been my experience that although honda's quality is excellent, they tend
to control their markets and suppress dealers from discounting. in other
words a bit of "price fixing".
thanks again
harry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 20:21:46 -0500
From: "T o m" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: [VAL] Generators - some good deals, lots of choices here

<http://www.southwestfastener.com/productsAllGenerators.htm>

Lots of different generators here, all brand names including Honda, Yamaha,
etc.

Tom
WBCCI 5303

From: "Peter Ryner" <pryner@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> Try ebay and a web search with google or webcrawler.  I used "honda
> generator" and found a lot of links.  Ebay had a lot of "buy it now" new
> generators which were about the same price as buying it from a dealer - in
> fact most were dealers.  Be sure to remember "buyer beware" if you buy a
> used one.  In the back of Trailer Life magazine, there are two ads for
> hondas.  www.mayberrys.com/camping has the 2000i listed for $899 with free
> shipping and www.hicklinpower.com doesn't have a price, but their ad says
> that "if you didn't buy it from us, you probably paid too much!"  I got
mine
> from http://hondashop.com about a year and a half ago for $850 and no
> shipping cost (or tax).  No financial interest or knowledge of any
> particular site.
> Pete

> any suggestions on the best place to get a deal on that honda generator.
it
> has been my experience that although honda's quality is excellent, they
tend
> to control their markets and suppress dealers from discounting. in other
> words a bit of "price fixing".
> thanks again
> harry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:28:12 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Electric Choices

A very good source of information on alternative energy sources
including solar power is the Home Power Magazine. Its available on line
also. Their advertisers have quite good prices for solar PV panels.

Your laptop and your TV probably take 2 or 3 amps when running. You
probably get 8 good ours of sunshine in the winter, so a 3 amp panel
could supply maybe 24 watthours. Might give you that many hours of lap
top and TV use.

In buying a PV panel or panels you pay for the energy up front, while
you pay for fuel the life of the generator. And you put up with noise.

Some generators have an auxiliary 12 volt output, and the Honda may use
a dc generator and an inverter for the AC output. Both 12 volt nominal
outputs are intended for battery charging.

While the cable with a alligator clips is workable, for regular use I'd
advise setting up a cable with a connector so once the polarity is wired
correctly, it can't be crossed. A reversed connection to the generator
could damage it.

There has been a kit on the internet supplying a plate to hold a car
alternator ready for belting to a vertical shaft lawn mower engine. By
shopping at the nearest discount store, the 3 hp vertical shaft lawn
mower engine comes with a mower for half the price of an engine alone. A
Delco 10SI alternator can have the regulator internally so keeps the
assembly simple. The 10SI one wire alternator is working quite fine on
my farm tractor. I bought my 10SI at a local automotive electric shop.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:28:14 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: VAL Digest V1 #141 / Re: [VAL] Re: "Alligator Clip"  Grounding Strap / Trailer Frame Grounding

All metal parts are to be grounded so to shunt any leakage currents to
ground instead of through the adjacent people touching that metal and a
metal water pipe or the earth. This is a fundamental rule of the
National Electrical Code.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 10:48:20 +0900
From: Jeffrey Fryckman <fryckman@xxxxxxxxxx.att.ne.jp>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Sandwiched Flooring

Sorry everyone, to include below, but necessary(?).

Thanks for "cool" opinion.  Didn't think of that.  I was planning to 
insulate between plating and flooring (lin. or wood).  Do you know if 
the weight would be OK?

Jeff


On Friday, January 30, 2004, at 01:29 AM, Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, 
electrical engineer wrote:

> From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> Date: Fri Jan 30, 2004  01:29:52 AM Asia/Tokyo
> To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> Subject: Re: [VAL] Sandwiched Flooring
> Reply-To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
>
> The aluminum plate would be cold underfoot. Aluminum is next to copper
> in having a great thermal inertia and a slab thick enough to replace the
> bending strength of 3/4 plywood would take a week to change temperature.
> Good for cool feet on a hot day if cooled at night, but good for cold
> feet in chilly weather.
>
> Gerald J.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 20:30:03 -0600
From: Blair <hitek_airstream@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Electric Choices

Harry  - You plug the trailer into the generator and the univolt does the rest.

It's no different than plugging in in a park.

Blair


At 12:16 PM 1/29/2004 -0700, you wrote:

>hey gq
>having never owned a generator, how do you interface it with your 12v dc
>system. in other words, "how do i plug it in?"
>harry
>66 safari
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Gary Quamen" <g_quamen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
>To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
>Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 11:24 AM
>Subject: Re: [VAL] Electric Choices
>
>
> > > In your opinions would I be better off with solar(any size) or a gas
> > powered
> > > generator and what size and make?
> > >
> > > I'm using with my  16 ft. Bambi.
> > >
> > > Thanks for any help you can give me.
> > >
> > > Kathy from Woodburn now Boondocking in Arizona
> >
> > Hi Kathy:
> >
> > See you again at Calistoga this year?
> >
> > If you are talking about boondocking, in my mind there is no contest.
> > Generator.  My choice is (I have one) a Honda EU 2000i.  Consider that it
> > will run:
> >
> > - Just about any power tool you have
> > - A microwave oven
> > - A small A/C unit (5000 to 6000 btu)
> > - A hairdryer
> > - An electric coffee pot
> > - Etc...etc...
> >
> > It will also be available to recharge your trailer battery as well as the
> > one in your tow vehicle (8 amps @ 12v).
> >
> > You can use it at home as backup in case of a power outage (like we have
>in
> > CA)
> >
> > It weighs less than 50#
> >
> > It's very quiet (but still a generator)
> >
> > It's a very pretty red (with black trim) <grin>.
> >
> > If you are not talking about boondocking......well....
> >
> > GQ '67 Safari
> > 4082 in CA
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
> >
> > To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> > http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 20:33:38 -0600
From: Blair <hitek_airstream@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Electric Choices

Harry - Dealers are dealing.

Check the internet for the best price and go to a
local dealer.  He'll deal.

I got a price of $834.00 off the internet and a local dealer who had a 
special at $999.00
matched the price.

Blair


At 03:41 PM 1/29/2004 -0700, you wrote:

> >If you want to charge a battery there is a special cord that plugs into the
>front of the generator.  The other end is a pair of battery clips. It
>charges at 8 amps or so.<
>
>thanks for the education gq,
>any suggestions on the best place to get a deal on that honda generator. it
>has been my experience that although honda's quality is excellent, they tend
>to control their markets and suppress dealers from discounting. in other
>words a bit of "price fixing".
>thanks again
>harry
>66 safari
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Gary Quamen" <g_quamen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
>To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
>Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 1:42 PM
>Subject: Re: [VAL] Electric Choices
>
>
> > > hey gq
> > > having never owned a generator, how do you interface it with your 12v dc
> > > system. in other words, "how do i plug it in?"
> > > harry
> > > 66 safari
> >
> > Hello Harry:
> >
> > If you want to charge a battery there is a special cord that plugs into
>the
> > front of the generator.  The other end is a pair of battery clips. It
> > charges at 8 amps or so.
> >
> > For the trailer, I run an extension cord between the generator and the 30
> > amp cord supply cord for the trailer.  The trailer doesn't know that it is
> > not hooked up to "normal" AC.  The trailer systems work as they always do
> > 120VAC at the plugs and 12VDC at the lights etc.  The Univolt or whatever
> > you have charges the battery.  I find that a 15 minute hookup to the
> > generator this way will recharge an evenings worth of lights and maybe a
>CD
> > movie watched on my laptop.  Or a little TV (the news) with my 9" 12V
>color
> > TV (48W).  I do use little propane single mantle lamps as much as possible
> > to keep the usage low.  If I need a batch of microwave popcorn (big
>current
> > draw) I start the generator for 5 minutes (a quick pull).  I keep the
> > generator on a shelf in the back of my truck inside the shell.  Just open
>a
> > side window, the rear hatch, and let 'er rip. Can barely be heard 10 feet
> > away, but it CAN be heard.
> >
> > Nothing to it really.
> >
> > GQ '67 Safari
> > 4022 in CA
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
> >
> > To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> > http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
>
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:39:49 -0500
From: "Jim Stewart" <9stewart@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Generators - some good deals, lots of choices here

The last time I talked to these people, they were not handling the Honda and
were pushing the Yamaha.
Jim
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "T o m" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 8:21 PM
Subject: [VAL] Generators - some good deals, lots of choices here


> <http://www.southwestfastener.com/productsAllGenerators.htm>
>
> Lots of different generators here, all brand names including Honda,
Yamaha,
> etc.
>
> Tom
> WBCCI 5303
>
> From: "Peter Ryner" <pryner@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> > Try ebay and a web search with google or webcrawler.  I used "honda
> > generator" and found a lot of links.  Ebay had a lot of "buy it now" new
> > generators which were about the same price as buying it from a dealer -
in
> > fact most were dealers.  Be sure to remember "buyer beware" if you buy a
> > used one.  In the back of Trailer Life magazine, there are two ads for
> > hondas.  www.mayberrys.com/camping has the 2000i listed for $899 with
free
> > shipping and www.hicklinpower.com doesn't have a price, but their ad
says
> > that "if you didn't buy it from us, you probably paid too much!"  I got
> mine
> > from http://hondashop.com about a year and a half ago for $850 and no
> > shipping cost (or tax).  No financial interest or knowledge of any
> > particular site.
> > Pete
>
> > any suggestions on the best place to get a deal on that honda generator.
> it
> > has been my experience that although honda's quality is excellent, they
> tend
> > to control their markets and suppress dealers from discounting. in other
> > words a bit of "price fixing".
> > thanks again
> > harry
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:47:47 -0800
From: "JimW" <jjw@ttc-cmc.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Electric Choices

Greets everyone,

When I bought my Honda generator just before Christmas one salesman freely
admitted they where price fixing.  He wanted to know where I got a price of
$925, over his $999.  I would not tell him.  :0

It was actually from a small town dealer who is some 30 miles closer to us.
I am glad I did too.  We had a problem with it, and I think it was a heavy
fog and a hard freeze that locked the intake valve and the rocker arm broke
when I tried to start it.  Somewhere in that manual it says to pull gently.

They fixed it with utmost speed, I was impressed.  Unfortunately a winter
storm blew threw and the roads where bad for a week.  I did not have it for
Christmas lights, but I rigged up something else.  The generator is working
great now.  It is nice to have a local dealer who is on the ball.
Everything under warranty.

They really are quiet, but not as the dealers would have you think.  The
thing is they are not annoying,  I compare it to the purring of a  really
really big jungle cat amplified on speakers.  Our dealer told us of a
wedding where an organ was hooked up to a EU2000i around the back of a shed.
This was up in the mountains at an old homestead.  Nobody noticed the sound
of the generator, just the organ music.  Don't you just love sales people!
:)

I know they are overpriced, but demand is high.  Does Yamaha have anything
of comparable quality?

The big selling point to me is that the electricity is clean.  I can run my
boiler, it has a computer, and all the other stuff around the house that is
computerized.  Even refrigerators have computer chips now.

My plans are to buy another one in a couple of years.

JimW


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Ryner" <pryner@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:41 PM
Subject: RE: [VAL] Electric Choices


> Try ebay and a web search with google or webcrawler.  I used "honda
> generator" and found a lot of links.  Ebay had a lot of "buy it now" new
> generators which were about the same price as buying it from a dealer - in
> fact most were dealers.  Be sure to remember "buyer beware" if you buy a
> used one.  In the back of Trailer Life magazine, there are two ads for
> hondas.  www.mayberrys.com/camping has the 2000i listed for $899 with free
> shipping and www.hicklinpower.com doesn't have a price, but their ad says
> that "if you didn't buy it from us, you probably paid too much!"  I got
mine
> from http://hondashop.com about a year and a half ago for $850 and no
> shipping cost (or tax).  No financial interest or knowledge of any
> particular site.
> Pete
>
> any suggestions on the best place to get a deal on that honda generator.
it
> has been my experience that although honda's quality is excellent, they
tend
> to control their markets and suppress dealers from discounting. in other
> words a bit of "price fixing".
> thanks again
> harry
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 20:13:22 -0800
From: "JimW" <jjw@ttc-cmc.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Sandwiched Flooring

I have one of the two Argosy Minuets that I know of that have an aluminum
floor.  It is two sheets of aluminum with a core of Styrofoam.  It was
factory installed, and has rivets at every frame cross.  It is a 1977, and
has been pulled down every dirt road and potholed backroad in the county.
It has held up very well.  The only problem with mine is that foot traffic
has sagged the aluminum in the high traffic areas.  The shell to frame is
great.  Mr. Burke said that some vulchem on the tail section will fix frame
seperation.   This unit has a worn out axel, but makes a great summer home.
:)

I hope to get it on the road this year.  We  were working on the kitchen of
our house this year, and it was much more work than we had planned on.

I took up the carpet, and will cover with something.  I am still thinking of
interlocking tiles, although Pergo, or something similiar sounds great.

JimW



- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey Fryckman" <fryckman@xxxxxxxxxx.att.ne.jp>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [VAL] Sandwiched Flooring


> Sorry everyone, to include below, but necessary(?).
>
> Thanks for "cool" opinion.  Didn't think of that.  I was planning to
> insulate between plating and flooring (lin. or wood).  Do you know if
> the weight would be OK?
>
> Jeff
>
>
> On Friday, January 30, 2004, at 01:29 AM, Dr. Gerald N. Johnson,
> electrical engineer wrote:
>
> > From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> > Date: Fri Jan 30, 2004  01:29:52 AM Asia/Tokyo
> > To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> > Subject: Re: [VAL] Sandwiched Flooring
> > Reply-To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> >
> > The aluminum plate would be cold underfoot. Aluminum is next to copper
> > in having a great thermal inertia and a slab thick enough to replace the
> > bending strength of 3/4 plywood would take a week to change temperature.
> > Good for cool feet on a hot day if cooled at night, but good for cold
> > feet in chilly weather.
> >
> > Gerald J.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:51:53 -0600
From: Kevin D Allen <overlander64@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: RE: [VAL] Sandwiched Flooring

Greetings JimW!

If the pattern that is developing holds true, I think that the general
statement can be made that most (if not all) 6.0 Metre Minuets and most
(if not all) 6.7 Metre Minuets had the composite aluminum floor.  So
far, all of the 6.0 Metre Minuet owners on the AirstreamForums.com who
have verified their floor structures have had the composite aluminum as
have those with the 6.7 Metre units who have verified the base floor
material.  The 7.3 Metre Minuets evidently had the traditional plywood
floors - - but this is with only one or two 7.3 Metre owners having
verified the structure.

My 6.0 Metre has evidently lived life much as your coach.  It just made
the return trip in December from Ace Fogdall RV where it received a new
axle and some plumbing work.  The coach was treated to new Armstrong
Laminate flooring with Quiet Step underlayment (a necessity to
compensate for the rivets).  The Armstrong Laminate is available in a
number of finishers (light cherry was the closest compliment to the
original wood accents in my coach).  The first year with the Armstrong
Laminate has been good - - easy to keep clean, resistant to the effects
of having two Chihuahuas scurrying about, and it lends a bit of elegance
to an otherwise very plain coach.  The Armstrong Laminate added 100
pounds to the weight of the trailer so it does mean that it has become
even more important to pack carefully to stay below the 3,200 pound GVWR
of the coach.

Good luck with your Minuet!

Kevin

Kevin D. Allen
1964 Overlander International/1999 GMC K2500 Suburban
1978 Argosy Minuet
1975 Cadillac Convertible (towcar in-training)
WBCCI/VAC #6359
 

- -----Original Message-----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com
[mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com] On Behalf Of JimW
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 10:13 PM
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] Sandwiched Flooring

I have one of the two Argosy Minuets that I know of that have an
aluminum
floor.  It is two sheets of aluminum with a core of Styrofoam.  It was
factory installed, and has rivets at every frame cross.  It is a 1977,
and
has been pulled down every dirt road and potholed backroad in the
county.
It has held up very well.  The only problem with mine is that foot
traffic
has sagged the aluminum in the high traffic areas.  The shell to frame
is
great.  Mr. Burke said that some vulchem on the tail section will fix
frame
seperation.   This unit has a worn out axel, but makes a great summer
home.
:)

I hope to get it on the road this year.  We  were working on the kitchen
of
our house this year, and it was much more work than we had planned on.

I took up the carpet, and will cover with something.  I am still
thinking of
interlocking tiles, although Pergo, or something similiar sounds great.

JimW

------------------------------

End of VAL Digest V1 #143
*************************


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