VAL Digest V1 #141

VAL Digest         Wednesday, January 28 2004         Volume 01 : Number 141




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Topics in Today's Digest:

[VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #138 / Grounded to Frame, GFI's 
[VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #138   /  Airstream.net addresses ???
[VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #140 - Aluminum wire
[VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #140 - Trailer grounding
[VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #140 - Rusted out taillight sockets
[VAL] Sandwiched flooring
RE: [VAL] Sandwiched flooring
Re: [VAL] Bargman #9
RE: [VAL] Sandwiched flooring
Re: [VAL] 1958 Traveler
Re: [VAL] 1958 Traveler
Re: [VAL] Bargman #9
Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #138 / Grounded to Frame, GFI's
Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #140 - Aluminum wire
Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #140 - Trailer grounding
Re: [VAL] Bargman #9
[VAL] Re: 66 Safari furnace vent
Re: [VAL] Bargman #9
[VAL] Silver Trailer Social May 13-16 2004 Calistoga Fairgrounds - Now taking reservations!
[VAL] Questios about my 1963 Tradewind
Re: [VAL] Bargman #9
Re: [VAL] Questios about my 1963 Tradewind
Re: [VAL] Bargman #9
[VAL] Re: 66 Safari furnace cover
Re: [VAL] Bargman #9
Re: [VAL] Questios about my 1963 Tradewind
Re: [VAL] Questios about my 1963 Tradewind

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Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 06:20:23 +0000
From: hex-n-tex@xxxxxxxxxx.net
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #138 / Grounded to Frame, GFI's 

Al I have over the years seen the jumper wire on the back or side of older 
receptacles and never had a clue what it was for. thanks for the explanation.

I have thought for a while that if every outlet recepticle was a GFI then 
alot of our trailer grounding (and old-house two wire) problems could be 
eliminated.
Then I learned that it was not necessary to place a GFI in every outlet box, 
but just in the lead (or first/from supply panel box of each circuit). And 
each following outlet on each circuit would be equally(within micro seconds) 
protected.
If cost is not a consideration would it make sense to place one at each 
outlet? Would there be any downside of doing that?
I have installed a few and know that they MUST be installed exactly right.

Do you and/or Dr.GJ agree that the GFIs would solve most grounding problems? 
including eliminating need in your house example to replace 2wire with 3wire 
romex? 

Then I heard that GFIs are notoriously "trip-happy"and that one should not be 
used that would chance tripping the outlet where Refrigerator or Freezer is 
located not even where computer is connected. Could you comment please.
There is also a rumor that humidity can cause tripping. This doesn't figure 
since these GFIs are supposed to be in all Bathrooms.
Any reason for placing a GFI on the AirConditioner circuit in the trailer? 


>Al wrote: 
> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 03:00:16 -0600
> From: waymark1@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #127 Trailer frame grounding
> 
> Also, in old houses that have only 2-wire wiring with no ground wire
> (like "12/2 with ground") sometimes the ground receptacle, the round
> opening in a replacement 3-prong outlet, is strapped with a little piece
> of bare wire to the "NEUTRAL" screw of the receptacle when the old
> 2-prong receptacles have been replaced with 3-prong receptacles. This is
> better than leaving the ground receptacle unconnected to anything and
> giving the impression that it is good just because it's there. The proper
> thing to do is rewire the house wiring with 2-conductor plus ground
> romex.
> Al
> 
> > ------------------------------
I had written:
> > Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 01:21:47 +0000
> > From: hex-n-tex@xxxxxxxxxx.net
> > Subject: [VAL] Grounded to Frame, GFI's and Hypothetical Scenarios

> > There are only 2 or 3 circuits in our Airstreams. One or two should
> have a GFI anyway, so by just adding enough more to make the first
> recepticle of each circuit GFI'd (Ground Fault Interrupted) wouldn't we
> solve the grounding  problem in all but the rarest of occurances? 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >  BTW (and I suppose it is obvious) I admit freely to being kilowatt
> challenged.
> > 
> > ++HeX++
> 
> ------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 06:40:00 +0000
From: hex-n-tex@xxxxxxxxxx.net
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #138   /  Airstream.net addresses ???

Toby what does this mean to the rank & file? Is "airstream .net" an ISP for 
some members?
You say all airstream.net addresses have been removed from the system for a 
while, I am not sure who this affects nor what it means. Would you explain 
please. Thanks  HeX

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 11:15:16 -0800 (PST)
> From: Toby Folwick <toby_folwick@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
> Subject: [VAL] Vintage Airstream Club Website update - no airstream.net 
email
> 
> Just wanted to let everyone know a couple things.  The
> Vintage Airstream Club website is back up and
> functioning!
> 
> The down-time was a result of a continuous stream of
> unsolicited SPAM email (upwards of 100,000 emails an
> hour) that was taxing not only our bandwidth and our
> users, but other users of the same host.
> 
> as a result, all airstream.net email addresses have
> been removed from the system until further notice.  If
> you have one of these addresses, please notify your
> contacts of another way to contact you.  I wouldn't
> expect to see them available any time real soon.
> 
> I'm sorry for the inconvenience, it had to be done.
> 
> Toby Folwick
> VAC Webmaster.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 03:31:45 -0600
From: waymark1@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #140 - Aluminum wire

Aluminum wire - gaack.
My old '52 Spartan is wired with aluminum.
There are several burnt places in the wiring at and around wire
connections.
The solid aluminum conductor house type wire tends to break from the
slight nicks that wire nuts put in the wire, and from the vibration of
towing. There were a couple of breaks that looked like that was the
cause.
RV 120VAC wire really should be stranded like any vehicle wire but the
solid copper house type romex seems to do well enough.
Aluminum is fine for high power wire that is spliced with big honker
clamps that are tightened with wrenches but not good for small gage house
wiring.

I don't trust the water for drinking or cooking. I trust the Everpure
filter to the drinking water spigot a little more.

Al
> ....................................................................
> For now, I distrust the aluminum wiring in my Caravel so I don't apply
power. I use an extension cord to run my heater or a battery charger when
traveling and don't connect anything to the trailer wiring (except from
the battery circuit). Someday I need to work over that aluminum wiring,
but I have a bigger project in the works right now.
> 
> If you don't trust the wiring, do you trust the water quality at the
spigot or in the community shower?
> 
> Gerald J.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 03:21:09 -0600
From: waymark1@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #140 - Trailer grounding

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Regards to the "Alligator Clip" grounding setup:
> So if I carry along one side of an old set of cheap 10foot approx.
battery jumper cables and I hook one end to the parks pedestal or parks
water spigot (metal all way to earth). Where exactly do I hook the other
end on my trailer?
> How bout the BAL-stabilizer Actuating-Bolt Head? Or should I drop a
large gauge wire out of my panel-box with some kind of end on it
(underneath trailer) to connect one end of alligator clip to?

Al - Not "exactly" anywhere.
Just to some metal part that is part of the body shell or the frame.
All a separate ground from the frame is for is additional "insurance."
After all, our cars and trucks don't have ground connections. Static
charge from the tires rolling on the road and the air passing over the
body bleeds off through the carbon blacks in the tires, and through my
leg when I step out (ouch!). Of course most of our tow vehicles don't
have 120VAC connected to them except for engine block heaters, which
usually have grounded plugs and are not shorted to the engine.

> Which brings up another question..where does the ground wire from the
panel usually connect to the trailer frame and by what type of
connection?

Al - According to modern standards neither the neutral nor ground bus in
the panel is not supposed to be connected to the trailer body or frame.
The ground wire from the ground bus is supposed to be connected to the
ground bus in the pedestal, and that in turn connected to the
ground/neutral bus in the main park panel. The trailer panel ground
should not be connected to the body shell or the frame.

>  I have some 20ft. good cables but the two cables are molded together
for much of the length and besides I wouldn't want to leave them out for
the taking.

Al - Doesn't need to be heavy gage like jumper cables but that's OK if
one is handy.
My trailer has an uninsulated copper braid that has a crimped lug
fastened to the shell by a screw and tooth washer inside the
converter/drain valve compartment, where the ground conductor and clamp
is stored while traveling.
> 
> Other than tripping over the connection is there ANY downside to doing
this?

Al - Oh, the bother with fooling with something that probably won't ever
do you any good. Like a fire extinguisher.
Pinching your finger with the clamp.

> Do I understand this right..? If the pedestal and the Trailer Park are
wired correctly this "Alligator Strap" has no purpose and does nothing
under any occurrence..??? But if pedestal or beyond (toward source) in
park is miswired  then you have successfully grounded your trailer...???

Al - If everything is done right and nothing ever goes wrong you don't
need ground wires and fire extinguishers, or GFIs. Or circuit breakers
for that matter.
> 
> Sounds good (and easy) to me but I wonder why I have never seen this
done in any park that I have paid any attention to. 

Al - Few bother with it. Your car isn't solidly grounded either. So you
get a static shock sometimes. How many people have you heard of being
seriously shocked or killed and the cause being an ungrounded trailer?
Now that the AC wiring ground wire is not connected to the trailer body
shell/frame (unless your trailer is from before the code was changed) the
danger from improperly wired or defective RV park wiring is virtually
eliminated, if your trailer is new enough to be in conformity.

> What about the previous statement by Dr.G.J.(I think) that a ground rod
must be at least (3 or so feet) a certain depth into the earth and
diameter of rod must be fairly hefty (can't remember exact dimension).

Al - More like 8 feet, he wrote. It needs to go down to the constantly
damp dirt, the virgin clay hopefully. Copper or galvanized iron fresh
water pipe is pretty good as long as it doesn't connect to plastic just
under the ground. The main park panel's ground rod should be one of the 8
foot ones, plus the main panel is connected to the utility company's
ground wire. And all the ground clamps should be tight and uncorroded, if
you can believe it.
> 
> Assuming bad wiring at your pedestal and now you have 120v returning to
park water pipe, and assuming all park is piped with underground steel,
wouldn't the guy who comes along and hooks up at the pedestal next to
your 
 pad be in for a "surprise jolt" when he connected his water line? Or at
any other pad in the park for that matter...???

Al - No, because underground metal pipe is pretty well grounded. Though
it isn't buried 8 feet deep in most latitudes it contacts the dirt a lot.
If neither your trailer's panel ground nor neutral busses are strapped to
the body shell/frame no current will get from the pedestal into the
trailer body shell/frame.
> 
> Al you certainly seem to speak from a position of authority and
expertise. As does Dr.GJ. I look forward to all your posts.  With all due
respect, might I inquire of your electrical background?
> After all electricity should be a bit more serious to us laymen than
what kind of pookey to patch a leak with.

Al - No authority, just a little expertise. I took Basic Electricity and
Basic Electronics in High School, taught by a retired Radio-TV station
installation engineer (PhD in Electrical Engineering), then majored in
Industrial Technology in University. I am not a licensed electrician nor
an electrical engineer.
As I have dealt with and done electric repairs in rental units for 20+
years off an on I have studied basic electrical wiring on a
"do-it-yourself" level, following up behind electricians, catching and
fixing their goofs (I'm sure I didn't catch them all!), and have read up
on RV wiring in electric wiring books, which are based on the National
Electric Code. It's really very simple once one decides that he is
willing to learn.
Dr. J is a real Electrical/Electronic Engineer, not exactly an
electrician, but EE's learn about grounding and have way more than just
the background to readily understand what is meant when reading electric
codes, which for the most part are written so "anyone" can understand if
they will pay attention. House and travel trailer wiring isn't
electronics.

Al - There has been a lot of argument over the years about the best ways
to ground power wiring and electric equipment, so we out here just have
to go with what the consensus of electric power engineers say as
expressed in the code. Like when I pointed out that RV power supply is
different from mobile and manufactured home grounding; I got that from
the electric code, not from my own observation or ideas.
The ground wire in romex used to be a lighter gage than the power
conductors, like 2/12g with 14g ground but now the ground wire gage
matches the power wires' gage: 2/12g with 12g ground.
The houses I grew up in and the one I live in now don't even have ground
wires except on the kitchen range. Like 2/12g and 2/14g. Don't touch the
kitchen sink faucet and the refrigerator at the same time!!
> 
> Thanks as always
> ++HeX++

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 03:42:07 -0600
From: waymark1@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #140 - Rusted out taillight sockets

Maybe this is the time to install some of those nifty LED taillight units
into the fixture and hide them behind (or is it in front of?) the
original lens. With four taillight positions you could install four LED
taillight units.
Al

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:33:03 -0800
> From: Glyn Judson <glynjudson@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> Subject: Re: [VAL] 12 Volt Electrical Problem
> 
>     All,
> 
>     Well I'm getting closer to solving my no outside lights problem (I
hope).  The one thing I did discover was that I relied upon the word of
the seller that the lights worked and therefore thought that the bulbs
and sockets were OK.  Oh contrare.
> 
>     The single conductor sockets (turn?) on both sides are all but
rusted away while their two conductor mates (tail & stop?) are in perfect
condition.  So I guess I need to rebuild or replace those sockets before
going any farther.
> 
.........................................................................
....................
> 
>     Thanks,
> 
>     Glyn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:01:03 -0500
From: "Louis Joyner" <joyner@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Sandwiched flooring

I'm going to throw this caution out, for those considering the sandwiched
flooring.  As I've thought about this for about a minute, you be the judge
of the value.

If, as I understand it, the plywood of the floor of the AS serves a critical
structural function, then any new floor floor material has to be equal to
it.  In an AS, the plywood acts as a membrane laterally (across the plane)
to stiffen the frame, and also supports the edge of the shell, transferring
the loads of the shell into the frame.  Under way, the forces are
dynamically (sp?) moving from place to place, and impact loads can be pretty
substantial.  The dreaded frame separation many of us see is a result of the
weakening of the floor membrane due to rot (in my case).  With no floor to
resist the forces, the forces don't go away-they just lead to a sagging
tail.  Replacement of the floor is the only solution.

The aluminum composite sandwich sounds great, but also sounds like it has
substantial limitations.  Its strenght laterally is probably enormous, but
strength perpendicular to the plane sounds very limited.  It's ability to
resist the forces on the fasteners that transfer the forces from the shell,
through the floor may also be similarly limited.  I'm sure all these factors
can be controlled somewhat by the thickness of the aluminum, strength of the
core, and type of fastener chosen.

I'm not saying it won't work, but I think this is a relatively complex
engineering project, not one for a backyard restoration.  I would much
rather spend the bucks on marine plywood, and have a good understanding of
the way the materials will behave in the long run.

Now if someone can tell me how to begin pulling the bathroom out of the '64
Overlander, I'll let youknow eventually if my pontificating has any basis in
fact.

Louis Joyner
'64 Overlander

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:44:02 -0500
From: "Gary L.\"Snook\" Hoffman" <thesnookman@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: RE: [VAL] Sandwiched flooring

Re: Sandwich flooring:

 What  Lou says has merit.

If you don't believe it. Bounce on the floor of the next airliner you get
on. That's not the thin carpet giving in.  In some areas it works like a
miracle. Ideally AS floors should have fiberglass backing and retrofits
could use fiber glassed reinforced joints. Kevlar could be used in some
applications but is expensive.

  It's a lot easier to put in a new floor when just working on a chassis.
Large pieces cut to exacting standards do not navigate the AS door easily
and once down to not come back up easily.   I put a new floor (door forward)
in a 69 Safari and it took many trips in and out to get it exactly right.
That replaced plywood floor and the old floor is now going to be topped off
with either wood laminate or new synthetic Bruce type products except in the
bath where new tile will be installed.

Gary L. "Snook" Hoffman, Ret. Chief Pilot. IDNR.  69 Safari being converted
(not restored) to mobile hunt/fish camp.

- -----Original Message-----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com
[mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com]On Behalf Of Louis Joyner
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 9:01 AM
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Sandwiched flooring


I'm going to throw this caution out, for those considering the sandwiched
flooring.  As I've thought about this for about a minute, you be the judge
of the value.

If, as I understand it, the plywood of the floor of the AS serves a critical
structural function, then any new floor floor material has to be equal to
it.  In an AS, the plywood acts as a membrane laterally (across the plane)
to stiffen the frame, and also supports the edge of the shell, transferring
the loads of the shell into the frame.  Under way, the forces are
dynamically (sp?) moving from place to place, and impact loads can be pretty
substantial.  The dreaded frame separation many of us see is a result of the
weakening of the floor membrane due to rot (in my case).  With no floor to
resist the forces, the forces don't go away-they just lead to a sagging
tail.  Replacement of the floor is the only solution.

The aluminum composite sandwich sounds great, but also sounds like it has
substantial limitations.  Its strenght laterally is probably enormous, but
strength perpendicular to the plane sounds very limited.  It's ability to
resist the forces on the fasteners that transfer the forces from the shell,
through the floor may also be similarly limited.  I'm sure all these factors
can be controlled somewhat by the thickness of the aluminum, strength of the
core, and type of fastener chosen.

I'm not saying it won't work, but I think this is a relatively complex
engineering project, not one for a backyard restoration.  I would much
rather spend the bucks on marine plywood, and have a good understanding of
the way the materials will behave in the long run.

Now if someone can tell me how to begin pulling the bathroom out of the '64
Overlander, I'll let youknow eventually if my pontificating has any basis in
fact.

Louis Joyner
'64 Overlander

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 07:54:49 -0700
From: "Fred Coldwell" <agrijeep@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Bargman #9

Hi Chuck & Lynn:

    I don't know of any fixed base source for the Bargman #9
tail light plastic lens.  Generally, the older the Airstream
trailer is, the more you must be a good scrounger to find
the parts to restore it.  Over the past 5 years, I found two
Bargman #9 plastic lens in vendor's "junk parts" boxes at
auto swap meets, but it took a lot of time, walking and
scrounging.  Those lens were traded to people who were
restoring trailers than took those lenses, and I don't have
them anymore.   Others might have squirreled some away and
be willing to swap or sell them.  

   While looking for the #9s', you also might keep your eye
open for old Signal Stat Acrlystat 4" plastic lens that have
the same general appearance.  I've never matched up the 4
screw holes, but they look to be the same distance apart, so
some old red Acrylstats might fit and work.  The dull
plastic lens might be shined up with some fine polish. Happy
Hunting!

Fred Coldwell

        

SHMossLanding@xxxxxxxxxx.com wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know of a source for Bargman #9 taillights?  Start to restore a
> 1958 Traveler.
> 
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> 
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:59:39 -0500
From: "Vasquez, David" <DVASQUEZ@mta-esa.org>
Subject: RE: [VAL] Sandwiched flooring

- -----Original Message-----
From: Louis Joyner [mailto:joyner@xxxxxxxxxx.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 9:01 AM
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Sandwiched flooring


Greetings Mr. Joyner
 Your structural assumption are in the right track. The reason for plywood
usage
is because, plywood with it cross strand fabrication takes both forces and
stabilizes
them, making it a very suitable product for flooring uses. Similar forces
are apply
to regular dwellings by atmospheric impacts.

The forces that are apply to a AS are similar and unlike those apply to a
dwellings.
Forces in this case comes from moving and stationary ways. Some of those
forces will
induce severe buckling in the structural members as well as the floor.

Industry can by all means design composite that will take theses forces and
accomplish
the desired results. As you have mention, it a matter of choosing the proper
material
and the sequence of construction to achieve that result. Transfer of lateral
and transverse
loads can be accomplish by simply adding straps at contact point and with a
fastener spacing
to take care of the transfer between wall and floor. This plus thickness of
material will
give you proper results. It WILL be expensive but doable.

David Vasquez
1971 Sovereign
WBCCI 7476 and VAC

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:09:55 -0700
From: "Fred Coldwell" <agrijeep@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 1958 Traveler

Chuck & Lynn:

   Some 1958 18 footers had bathrooms and others did not. I
suspect the majority did not.  If you trailer had a
bathroom, there should be signs in the floor where the
plumbing was.  

Your trailer has the clues to show you the original layout. 
You have to become an ASI and mentally reconstruct your
trailer's layout.  Begin underneath looking for holes in the
belly pan where pipes and drains connected to appliances
directly above.  Look at the floor for matching holes.  Look
at the floor and walls for holes that held partitions,
furniture, fixtures, appliances and overhead bins.  Look at
the roof for vent locations.   By 1958, closets generally
did not span windows, so imagine a closet or other interior
tall furniture (stack of drawers) where the solid wall was
and a gaucho, table or low cabinet underneath the windows. 
I don't have any 1958 literature showing layouts, but 1957
and 1959 layouts should be similar, so study them for
clues.  In a metaphysical sense, the answer lies within your
trailer.         
Fred Coldwell
VAC Archive Historian


SHMossLanding@xxxxxxxxxx.com wrote:
> 
> Starting  estoration on our 1958 Traveler, could use some help as far as the
> original layout.. Someone started remodeling n a very poor fashion, and we
> would like to get it back to somewhat original.  If anyone one has one and could
> send me pictures of the interior, it would be very helpful.  It a 1958
> California model. I have been to Vintge Airstream Photo Archives, but don'e see
> anything with the window configuration we have. Two windows on the street side.
> Did these 58's have toilets? Any help would be appreciated.
> 
>                                      Thanks,
>                                Chuck & Lynn
>                                1965 Overlander
>                                1958 Traveler
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
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> 
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:45:53 -0700
From: "Kenneth E. Johansen" <johansen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 1958 Traveler

Chuck and Lynn

I used to own the 59 (first set of pictures) thats in the archives so if 
there is anything I can help with please let me know.  Sounds to me like 
you had a different layout.  Mine had a potty - no shower.

Ken J.
5358


At 12:17 AM 01/27/04 -0500, you wrote:
>Starting  estoration on our 1958 Traveler, could use some help as far as the
>original layout.. Someone started remodeling n a very poor fashion, and we
>would like to get it back to somewhat original.  If anyone one has one and 
>could
>send me pictures of the interior, it would be very helpful.  It a 1958
>California model. I have been to Vintge Airstream Photo Archives, but 
>don'e see
>anything with the window configuration we have. Two windows on the street 
>side.
>Did these 58's have toilets? Any help would be appreciated.
>
>                                      Thanks,
>                                Chuck & Lynn
>                                1965 Overlander
>                                1958 Traveler
>
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>
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:59:02 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Bargman #9

Replacement lenses may be made in small quantities by casting duplicates
in polyester resin. One starts by making a mold using the original lens
and liquid silicone rubber. Probably make a two piece mold, one for the
front, one for the rear of the lens. When the second silicone (often
supported by plaster of paris) cures, then you can mix and pour
polyester resin into the two piece mold and make a lens as fast as the
polyester resin sets. The limits on detail are fine enough for small
scale model train parts, so should copy a lens well. The limitation will
be finding a clear resin and a permanent yet transparent red tinting
agent.

Otherwise when looking for adaptable lenses don't neglect the Peterson
and Grote lines or the assortments of lenses often found in farm stores
for adding lights to farm tractors and implements. It could easily be
that the center of a 5" square lens could be sawed out to fit the 4"
light with a fine toothed blade in a coping saw with bolt holes gently
drilled with ordinary drill bits, and the irregular gasket surface be
accommodated with a thick soft rubber gasket or rib of caulk. I'd be
inclined in my shop to drill the mounting hole first while supporting
the lens on a wooden form turned to fit, then I'd try to use my metal
lathe to turn the lens outside hoping to have fewer rough edges for
stress risers. It would need a pair of pads, wood or fiber for the
inside and outside of the lens to hold it. One or both might be lined
with carpet.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:59:12 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #138 / Grounded to Frame, GFI's

Properly applied there should be a jumper wire from each outlet to each
metal outlet box and that wire should be attached to the ground wire in
the romex.

A GFI can run from two wire and supply a string of three wire outlets,
but there must be a ground wire from the GFI outlet to each of those
downstream outlets.

Generally a GFI doesn't work well fed by another GFI.

A GFI won't work when the ground wire is shared by different circuits (a
short cut in wiring in conduit).

GFI are for protecting appliance and tool users from leakage to the case
with the case metal and poorly grounded. Solid grounds are one of the
fundamental concepts in the National Electrical Code. Solid grounds are
expected to remain solid and to divert any and all leaks or shorts from
hot to appliance case. Maintenance of that solid ground is required from
day one and the amateur electrician discovers that 1/3 of the wiring
work is saved if its ignored and the appliances (e.g. electrical loads)
all work perfectly without the ground. The ground should never carry
current until there's a short in an appliance, then its job is to
protect the user, not the appliance. The GFI was developed because
maintaining the ground was problematic at best, neglected at worst.
Double insulated tools were also one solution to the shock problem. One
death case that I investigated came from a Skil type saw with multiple
cuts in its cord. One of the twisted and taped splices shorted hot to
ground and while it blew the supply fuse, it also opened the ground wire
connections (mobile home with aluminum wire). When the fuse was replaced
and the user tried again (just after taking a dip in the lake) the lack
of ground killed him. In another case where ground and neutral were
connected together at the receptacle on a construction site, the Skil
saw user (really was a Skil saw) knew the ground wire was to protect him
and he checked all his ground splices and when the neutral feed wire
opened having that good ground wire on his saw killed him.

GFI are sensitive. The one feeding my old Monitor trailer tended to trip
every rain. The combination of old trailer with dirt insulation on the
wiring devices and humidity did cause it to trip. GFI are placed in
bathrooms because metal plumbing tends to guarantee a good ground source
to make shock of people more likely. And probably to try to catch
dropping the hair dryer into the tub of water. Today hair dryers come
with GFI built into their plug for that same purpose.

If the metal of the Air conditioner and the grounded sink faucet can be
reached at the same time, in theory a GFI should supply the air
conditioner. Possibly not by regulation. However, the A/C will have an
accumulation of dirt around all its wiring components to be excessively
humidity sensitive.

Gerald

- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:59:14 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #140 - Aluminum wire

Single strand aluminum wire was a bad idea. Burnt places are a hint of
its problems. I agree that RV wiring should all be stranded copper, but
I've never found it to be the case. Fortunately 12 or 14 gauge copper is
fairly flexible and doesn't work harden rapidly.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:59:17 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #140 - Trailer grounding

In my 1999 NEC, 551.56 requires the chassis to be connected to the power
system safety ground. In general it requires that all exposed noncurrent
carrying parts that may become energized by being bonded to the
grounding terminal or enclosure of the distribution panel. E.g. if its
not live or neutral its grounded, and that includes the metal lining and
skin.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:18:33 -0800
From: "chyde" <chyde@primelink1.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Bargman #9

> Does anyone know of a source for Bargman #9 taillights?  Start to restore
a
> 1958 Traveler.

What's a Bargman #9 look like? My 57 Sovereign of the Road has Bargman #6's
and my 59 Ambassador has Bargman #99's (Wedding Cake). The center section or
top tier of the 99 is identical to the complete lens of the #6 with the
exception of the screw holes. AirstreamDreams is carrying the 99's again so
this may be a start.
Colin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 17:32:40 -0500
From: "Patricia V. Raimondo" <praimond@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Re: 66 Safari furnace vent

Hi Colin,

I dug up photo's of my 67 Safari and it also had a small chimney/inlet 
vent from the curb side. I remember that it was knocked off at a 
Camping World service center and I had to fabricate a replacement. It 
wasn't very fancy! The photo's aren't digital or I'd send it to you.

Patti

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 18:18:02 -0500
From: "Jim Stewart" <9stewart@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Bargman #9

There are a couple of old, rusty tail lights from a 1956 Ideal travel
trailer on Ebay. I couldn't tell if they were Bargmans or not. The numbers
are 2456373810 and 2456373472.

Jim
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Coldwell" <agrijeep@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [VAL] Bargman #9


> Hi Chuck & Lynn:
>
>     I don't know of any fixed base source for the Bargman #9
> tail light plastic lens.  Generally, the older the Airstream
> trailer is, the more you must be a good scrounger to find
> the parts to restore it.  Over the past 5 years, I found two
> Bargman #9 plastic lens in vendor's "junk parts" boxes at
> auto swap meets, but it took a lot of time, walking and
> scrounging.  Those lens were traded to people who were
> restoring trailers than took those lenses, and I don't have
> them anymore.   Others might have squirreled some away and
> be willing to swap or sell them.
>
>    While looking for the #9s', you also might keep your eye
> open for old Signal Stat Acrlystat 4" plastic lens that have
> the same general appearance.  I've never matched up the 4
> screw holes, but they look to be the same distance apart, so
> some old red Acrylstats might fit and work.  The dull
> plastic lens might be shined up with some fine polish. Happy
> Hunting!
>
> Fred Coldwell
>
>
>
> SHMossLanding@xxxxxxxxxx.com wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone know of a source for Bargman #9 taillights?  Start to
restore a
> > 1958 Traveler.
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
> >
> > To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> > http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:23:44 -0800
From: "Arlen & Shirley" <globetrotter64@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Silver Trailer Social May 13-16 2004 Calistoga Fairgrounds - Now taking reservations!

Come join us May 13-16 in the California Napa Valley for a weekend with your
vintage trailer. This gathering is just for fun and not sponsored by any
club.  Come for the long weekend or just for a day - whatever fits your
schedule.

We are now taking reservations - online only.
For information and the reservation form please see the website:

http://globetrotter64.home.att.net/gather.htm

You are welcome to send this email on to your friends (that own pre-1970
trailers) that you think might like to join us at Calistoga.

Arlen & Shirley Manning Napa CA
1964 Globetrotter
http://globetrotter64.home.att.net/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 16:19:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Rapa <steverapa@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Questios about my 1963 Tradewind

Hi,
I am new to this list. I have a 1963 Airstream
Tradewind.The prevous owner took the black tank out
and had it plumbed for a direct sewer hool up. I want
to change it back. First I need a tank, second I need
to know how the original plunbing system was hooked
up.I guess I'll just start here. I do have a bunch
more questions but I'll start with this first.
Thanks for your help,
Steve

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 19:49:03 -0500
From: "T o m" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Bargman #9

http://www.vintageairstream.com/floyd/restoration/exteriorlights.html

Go here and look at the pictures.  If you can't see them I can send them to
you one at a time.

Tom

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "chyde" <chyde@primelink1.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [VAL] Bargman #9


> > Does anyone know of a source for Bargman #9 taillights?  Start to
restore
> a
> > 1958 Traveler.
>
> What's a Bargman #9 look like? My 57 Sovereign of the Road has Bargman
#6's
> and my 59 Ambassador has Bargman #99's (Wedding Cake). The center section
or
> top tier of the 99 is identical to the complete lens of the #6 with the
> exception of the screw holes. AirstreamDreams is carrying the 99's again
so
> this may be a start.
> Colin
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:06:03 -0600
From: Herb Spies <spies@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Questios about my 1963 Tradewind

I have a 63 Globetrotter. You can get some idea of how the black tank is 
situated in this model by looking at

http://www.nwflorida.net/gt00004.htm

This page details the time I took the black tank out and repaired the 
floor around it.
Basically the black tank sits on top of the floor inside a wooden "box" 
with the toilet mounted on top of the box and tank. Note the tank is 
shaped to fit the curve of the rear of the coach.
The drain is directly below the top hole. Their are two shots of the 
bottom of the tank with one showing how the valve is mounted to the tank.
Not shown ( and I don't have a picture) is the 4 way PVC connector that 
mounts underneath the valve. It is like a cross with the top connected 
to the valve , the bottom is what goes thru the belly pan and has the 
connector to hook your sewer hose. The two side connections allow the 
gray water from the sink and the tub/bath sink to drain into the same 
sewer hose. Note the gray water enters the cross pipe below the black 
tank. You can see the gray water pipes in the third picture down on the 
left side. These pipes had rubber sleeves and clamps rather than being 
cemented together. I tried to find this connector at my local RV parts 
shops but failed so I repaired and reused my old connector. The black 
tank is made from fiberglass and was in good shape.

Steve Rapa wrote:

>Hi,
>I am new to this list. I have a 1963 Airstream
>Tradewind.The previous owner took the black tank out
>and had it plumbed for a direct sewer hool up. I want
>to change it back. First I need a tank, second I need
>to know how the original plunbing system was hooked
>up.I guess I'll just start here. I do have a bunch
>more questions but I'll start with this first.
>Thanks for your help,
>Steve
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
>To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
>http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:25:00 -0500
From: "chyde" <brownhyde@primelink1.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Bargman #9

> http://www.vintageairstream.com/floyd/restoration/exteriorlights.html
>
> Go here and look at the pictures.  If you can't see them I can send them
to
> you one at a time.
>
> Tom

Tom,
I guess I'm scratching my head a bit now. I checked out the link above to
RJ's site and these lights are identical to the Bargman #6 lens that came on
my 57 Sovereign of the Road however RJ calls them #11's. The chrome ring
around the outside appears to say No. 9. I'll check the ring on mine
tomorrow. Perhaps the lenses had different number designations on the West
Coast.  Fred Coldwell described a Bargman #9 in the latest Vintage Advantage
article as being hex shaped which was used at some point in 1956.
Fred, Do you feel like taking a stab at this one?
Colin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:51:23 -0500
From: "chyde" <brownhyde@primelink1.net>
Subject: [VAL] Re: 66 Safari furnace cover

> Hi Colin,
>
> I dug up photo's of my 67 Safari and it also had a small chimney/inlet
> vent from the curb side. I remember that it was knocked off at a
> Camping World service center and I had to fabricate a replacement. It
> wasn't very fancy! The photo's aren't digital or I'd send it to you.
>
> Patti

Hi Patti,
Several people have sent photos which seem to contradict each other, however
we all agree that the vent itself is quite small and has two openings. The
small vent that I am talking about is screwed onto a large piece of flat
aluminum and screwed on the side of the trailer. The furnace appears to be
the original Suburban. When I removed this rather crude looking cover, I
discovered that the furnace needs to slide out for servicing.  Some of the
trailers that only have the small vent with no large cover probably get
serviced from the inside of the trailer. I guess my question is still, is
this cover a "bodge job" by some previous owner?  The perimeter joint was
covered with silicone which added to the crude appearance.
Colin
PS Great to hear about your 54 Flying Cloud. Keep us informed on the
progress!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:19:11 -0700
From: "Fred Coldwell" <agrijeep@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Bargman #9

Hi Colin:

   First, I screwed up on page 11 in my 1954-57 Airstream
article in The Vintage Advantage.  The hex-sided Bargman
tail light is either a model 6 or model 7.  I don't know the
difference, but one might be 6 volts and the other 12
volts.  Or, one might have 2 lamp sockets for two separate
bulbs and the other might have one socket for a two-filament
bulb.  The easy way to correctly remember the model number
of the Bargman hex-sided trail light is six sides = model
6.  

   The Bargman models 8 and 9 tail lights are round and
inset into the surrounding metal, as shown on RJ's web
site.  They use a Bargman No. 11 lens, as stated on the
restoration pages of RJ's web site. 

   The Bargman number for the lens itself appears in relief
on the lens exterior face, so check the lens on your trailer
for the number.  Let me know if it is a No. 6 lens.  If so,
I'll add that fact to the Bargman light and lens model line
up.  Thanks!

   Hope this helps, and I'm sorry for the confusion. 

Fred Coldwell
VAC Archive Historian
      
  
chyde wrote:
> 
> > http://www.vintageairstream.com/floyd/restoration/exteriorlights.html
> >
> > Go here and look at the pictures.  If you can't see them I can send them
> to
> > you one at a time.
> >
> > Tom
> 
> Tom,
> I guess I'm scratching my head a bit now. I checked out the link above to
> RJ's site and these lights are identical to the Bargman #6 lens that came on
> my 57 Sovereign of the Road however RJ calls them #11's. The chrome ring
> around the outside appears to say No. 9. I'll check the ring on mine
> tomorrow. Perhaps the lenses had different number designations on the West
> Coast.  Fred Coldwell described a Bargman #9 in the latest Vintage Advantage
> article as being hex shaped which was used at some point in 1956.
> Fred, Do you feel like taking a stab at this one?
> Colin
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
> 
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 19:26:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Rapa <steverapa@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Questios about my 1963 Tradewind

Wow!! That sure changed the way I was thinking. I
thought the black tank mounted under the trailer. So
the tank is actually mounted under that platform the
toilet is mounted on. I will remove the toilet and
platform to check it out.Any idea of how to locate a
black tank? Or should I contact some company that can
make a custom one? Also I get the idea of the grey
water lines are connected under the black tank so they
drain seperatly and not into the black tank.Thanks for
sending the link with the pictures. Your trailer sure
looks nice.
Thanks again for the info.
Steve 1963 Tradewind
- --- Herb Spies <spies@xxxxxxxxxx.net> wrote:
> I have a 63 Globetrotter. You can get some idea of
> how the black tank is 
> situated in this model by looking at
> 
> http://www.nwflorida.net/gt00004.htm
> 
> This page details the time I took the black tank out
> and repaired the 
> floor around it.
> Basically the black tank sits on top of the floor
> inside a wooden "box" 
> with the toilet mounted on top of the box and tank.
> Note the tank is 
> shaped to fit the curve of the rear of the coach.
> The drain is directly below the top hole. Their are
> two shots of the 
> bottom of the tank with one showing how the valve is
> mounted to the tank.
> Not shown ( and I don't have a picture) is the 4 way
> PVC connector that 
> mounts underneath the valve. It is like a cross with
> the top connected 
> to the valve , the bottom is what goes thru the
> belly pan and has the 
> connector to hook your sewer hose. The two side
> connections allow the 
> gray water from the sink and the tub/bath sink to
> drain into the same 
> sewer hose. Note the gray water enters the cross
> pipe below the black 
> tank. You can see the gray water pipes in the third
> picture down on the 
> left side. These pipes had rubber sleeves and clamps
> rather than being 
> cemented together. I tried to find this connector at
> my local RV parts 
> shops but failed so I repaired and reused my old
> connector. The black 
> tank is made from fiberglass and was in good shape.
> 
> Steve Rapa wrote:
> 
> >Hi,
> >I am new to this list. I have a 1963 Airstream
> >Tradewind.The previous owner took the black tank
> out
> >and had it plumbed for a direct sewer hool up. I
> want
> >to change it back. First I need a tank, second I
> need
> >to know how the original plunbing system was hooked
> >up.I guess I'll just start here. I do have a bunch
> >more questions but I'll start with this first.
> >Thanks for your help,
> >Steve
> >
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
> >When replying to a message. please delete all
> unnecessary original text
> >
> >To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please
> go to
>
>http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
> 
>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all
> unnecessary original text
> 
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please
> go to
>
http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 22:26:18 -0600
From: Herb Spies <spies@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Questios about my 1963 Tradewind

The Tradewind and the Globetrotter appear to have the save toilet 
configuration. Look at the 63 catalog at 
http://airstream.net/members/documents/catalogs/
So I would expect the tank to have been in that raised platform.

You are right in that the gray water lines do not drain into the black 
tank .

I  would probably search thru Tom Patterson's archive to see what has 
been discussed before about replacing black water tanks and also look at 
some of the used parts dealers to find a tank.

I did get a new fresh water tank from All Rite (www.all-rite.com). They 
say they can make custom tanks.
 
Herb

Steve Rapa wrote:

>Wow!! That sure changed the way I was thinking. I
>thought the black tank mounted under the trailer. So
>the tank is actually mounted under that platform the
>toilet is mounted on. I will remove the toilet and
>platform to check it out.Any idea of how to locate a
>black tank? Or should I contact some company that can
>make a custom one? Also I get the idea of the grey
>water lines are connected under the black tank so they
>drain seperatly and not into the black tank.Thanks for
>sending the link with the pictures. Your trailer sure
>looks nice.
>Thanks again for the info.
>Steve 1963 Tradewind

------------------------------

End of VAL Digest V1 #141
*************************


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