VAL Digest V1 #132

VAL Digest          Monday, January 19 2004          Volume 01 : Number 132




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Topics in Today's Digest:

[VAL] tank replacement
[VAL] Vintage Airstream Club Website.
RE: [VAL] Roof standing
Re: [VAL] tank replacement
[VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #126 - grounding
[VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #128 - RV vs. mobile home park wiring
[VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #126 - Wiring
Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #126 - grounding

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Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 23:44:54 -0800 (PST)
From: M Tate <firebirdesprit@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] tank replacement

You might try inlandrv.com. They made my black water
tank for my '65 Overlander. Best of luck.
P.S. Thanks to all who replied about the foam for my
holding tank. Plan to try to get it in next week

=====
Mark, Pennie and Rachel
'65 Overlander Land Yacht

__________________________________
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Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 23:56:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Toby Folwick <toby_folwick@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Vintage Airstream Club Website.

Hi all - just wanted to let you know that the Vintage
Airstream Club website will be down temporarily for
maintenance.

Thanks for your patience!

Toby Folwick
VAC Webmaster. 

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Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 07:33:57 -0500
From: "Edward Emerick" <EEMERICK@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: [VAL] Roof standing

Hello,
I have spent many an hour on the top of both of my units, the 30 footer
is much safer than the 18. Note on the 18 the ribs running from floor to
ceiling are structurally sound and will hold some weight (221 of me!)
but never trust the cross the top supports, they are pop riveted to the
skin and NOT attached to the ribs in a manner I would trust, they are
just sort of sitting there. Stay on the ribs on your Butt don't stand
up! (Said from a safety guy)
Ed
WBCCI 4425
68 Sovereign
59 Traveler

- -----Original Message-----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com
[mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com] On Behalf Of gshippen
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 12:44 AM
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] Roof standing


Bill,

I would not walk directly on the roof.  The thought of punching dents in
looms greatly in my mind so I placed carpet upside down then small
pieces of plywood to match the structural joists.  Once a dent is put in
it doesn't come out.  Good luck,  GAS
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie/Betty Burke" <cbburke@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [VAL] Roof standing


> Bill,
>
> Yes it is safe. But, there are some guidelines to be aware of. Once on

> the roof the use of carpet, reversed, or a blanket or toweling to 
> protect the skin from whatever is on your shoes is recommended. 
> Getting on the roof can be done a number of ways. One of the simpler 
> ways
uses
> the patio awning case as a step over point from an 8' step ladder. 
> Another
is to
> put padding on an extension ladder were it contacts the awning case.
Several
> other folks on the list have other ideas as well.
>
> Charlie
>
> William Durkee wrote:
>
> > Is it ok to stand on the top of the Airstream?  I have to replace 
> > the
gear
> > on the antenna.  I thought the most convenient place to be working 
> > on it
was
> > from above while on the top.
> >
> > Bill Durkee
> > 1969 Sovereign
> > 03 Ram 1500 Quad
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up  fast & reliable Internet access 
> > with
prime
> > features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1
> >
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> >
> > To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to 
> > http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
>
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> text
>
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 09:47:11 -0500
From: "Jim Greene" <drgreene@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] tank replacement

Actually, Inland doesn't "make" tanks. They buy them from the manufacturer
and add their markup. I replaced the fresh water tank for my ' 68 Tradewind
which I ordered from Inca Plastics at $205. The price I was quoted from
Inland was $450.  I assume the Inca folks made a profit at their $205 price
but that's a guess.

Jim Greene
' 68 Tradewind

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "M Tate" <firebirdesprit@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 2:44 AM
Subject: [VAL] tank replacement


> You might try inlandrv.com. They made my black water
> tank for my '65 Overlander. Best of luck.
> P.S. Thanks to all who replied about the foam for my
> holding tank. Plan to try to get it in next week
>
> =====
> Mark, Pennie and Rachel
> '65 Overlander Land Yacht
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

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Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 03:49:33 -0600
From: waymark1@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #126 - grounding

Now neither the green (ground) wire nor the neutral (white) wire is
connected to the trailer frame or shell. 
The old way could be dangerous if the RV park wiring had reverse polarity
or other defective wiring or connections. This situation would make the
trailer shell/frame 120V to ground. Also reverse polarity would connect
120VAC to one side of the 12VDC wiring, which if they were connected
correctly would make the shells and plates of the cigar-lighter type 12V
sockets "hot."
A separate ground strap from the trailer frame/shell to a good dirt
ground is a good idea. My '79 Silver Streak has one.
Al

> Used to be that the 115VAC neutral (white) wire was grounded to the RV
> body/chassis/frame. The ground wire (if there was one) was likewise
> connected to the RV chassis/body/frame.
 
I don't know when they switched away from the old neutral-to-trailer
shell system, but our 1960 model has the modern 3-wire connection with
the green wire to the shell.
 
Best,
John Sellers

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Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 03:29:10 -0600
From: waymark1@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #128 - RV vs. mobile home park wiring

I just read in a book on elec. wiring that the only place in a RV park
the neutral and ground are connected is at the main power panel, not at
the service pedestal where the RV plugs in. Which do you mean by "service
panel?"
This is different from a mobile home park, which has the ground and
neutral connected together at the individual pedestals in addition to at
the main panel.
Al

> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 00:17:50 -0600
> From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" 
> <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> Subject: Re: [VAL] Grounded to Frame, GFI's and Hypothetical Scenarios
> 
> Neutral and ground in the RV are to be kept isolated from each other.
In the olden days, the panel in the RV was considered to be a service
entrance panel and in the service entrance panel ground and neutral are
connected. That's the ONLY place they are connected in the modern scheme
of wiring. Today, the service panel for the RV Park is the last place
neutral and ground are connected together. They are kept separate through
the service pedestal and the RV main panel.
> 
> I checked into the wiring in a mobile home park (same as RV except they
can have a couple 50 amp 240 volt lines) that was missing the separate
wire for neutral and ground to each pedestal an the local electrical
inspector was threatening to close the place unless they rewired (20
years ago or so). As far as I can tell, they either ran another conductor
to separate neutral and ground to each pedestal or closed down. There
wasn't any in between that could be negotiated. I tried.
> 
..................................................
> 
> Gerald
> - -- 
> Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
> Reproduction by permission only

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Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 03:56:51 -0600
From: waymark1@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #126 - Wiring

The green wire is connected to the green wire in the pedestal (receptacle
box), which is (s'posed to be) connected to the neutral/ground bus in the
main park power panel.
Al

> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:29:57 -0700
> From: "Fred Coldwell" <agrijeep@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> Subject: [VAL] Modern 3 plug trailer wiring
> 
> Hi:
> 
>   So exactly how are trailers wired today with the 115 VAC three way
grounded lead in wire?   I understand the hot wire attaches to the hot
wire input terminal inside the circuit breaker box, and the neutral wire
likewise attaches to the neutral wire input terminal inside the breaker
box.  That completes a two wire circuit and gives the trailer useable 115
VAC juice when the circuit is closed.  
> 
>   But where does the ground wire attach in the trailer, if anywhere? 
Is the ground wire simply left unattached to anything in the breaker box
or trailer, so the trailer becomes in essence a two wire trailer? Or is
the ground wire attached to the ground wire lug inside the breaker box?  
  
> 
>    I will be re-wiring a 1950 Airstream this springs and would like to
do it right.  Thanks.
> 
> Fred in Denver
> with a two wire  
> waymark1@xxxxxxxxxx.com wrote:
> > 
> > This may have been the case a long time ago.
> > A long time ago RVs didn't have grey water tanks either - they dumped
onto the ground if there was no park sewer to drain into.
> > Today we consider that a faulty (or just antique) setup.
> > 
> > Used to be that the 115VAC neutral (white) wire was grounded to the
RV body/chassis/frame. The ground wire (if there was one) was likewise
connected to the RV chassis/body/frame. Today this is not allowed. 
> The 115VAC must be totally isolated from the frame/chassis/body of the
RV and grounded only to the land power neutral and ground. The old way,
grounding to the RV frame/chassis/body could get you electrocuted if the
land power polarity was reversed (defective wiring setup). It also could
allow 115VAC to get into the 12VDC wiring system. 
> ------------------------------

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Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:02:50 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #126 - grounding

The service panel is the first breaker panel on the load side of the
meter. The ground and neutral wires connect together there and to a
pretty good ground rod.

Ground (green) should be connected to the trailer shell and frame. So
that leakage from hot to the shell and frame is grounded instead of
letting those metal parts float.

A good earth ground is an 8' rod at least half an inch in diameter
driven straight down to below the water table. A smaller metal twig that
doesn't reach the water table isn't effective as an electrical ground.
Then remember that the buried wiring in the campground may be where you
drive that rod or rodette and not 4' down, probably not more than about
2' down and you could be driving your temporary rod through the wiring
causing it great damage and it could lead to damage to you directly from
the voltage on the rod driven into the hot wire, as well as to your bank
account.

That case I cited last week of the crossed wiring to the cattle waterer
panel had a good driven ground at the outdoor panel. Yet the voltage to
adjacent earth still was over 100 volts, enough to kill the farmer when
he was a little damp from a light drizzle. I lit a 100 watt lamp between
the panel case and the blade of a shovel, bright enough to photograph in
full summer midday sun and show the lamp lit.

Wires are more effective than ground rods, and undersized ground rods do
nothing for safety.

I know the electrical inspector for Polk County, Iowa will not allow the
ground and neutral to be connected together at the individual pedestals
in a mobile home park. He demands separate ground wires back to the main
panel of the park.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

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End of VAL Digest V1 #132
*************************


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