VAL Digest V1 #128

VAL Digest         Thursday, January 15 2004         Volume 01 : Number 128




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Topics in Today's Digest:

Re: [VAL] Grounded to Frame, GFI's and Hypothetical Scenarios
[VAL] Re: Pearl
[VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #127 - Combo W/Ds for your RV?
Re: [VAL] Pearl Main
[VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #127
Re: [VAL] Grounded to Frame, GFI's and Hypothetical Scenarios
[VAL] Re:all those caps / VAL Digest V1 #127
Re: [VAL] why 20 and not 30 A GFI in campgrounds?
Re: [VAL] Re:all those caps / VAL Digest V1 #127
[VAL] Winter Polishing
Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #127 - Combo W/Ds for your RV?
RE: [VAL] Winter Polishing
Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #125
Re: [VAL] Winter Polishing
Re: [VAL] Winter Polishing
Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #127 - Combo W/Ds for your RV?
Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #127 - Combo W/Ds for your RV?
Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #127 - Combo W/Ds for your RV?
Re: [VAL] Pearl Main
[VAL] Propane tanks hold down
Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #127 - Combo W/Ds for your RV?
Re: [VAL] Winter Polishing
RE: [VAL] Propane tanks hold down
Re: [VAL] Propane tanks hold down
Re: [VAL] Propane tanks hold down
Re: [VAL] Pearl Main
Re: [VAL] Pearl Main
Re: [VAL] Propane tanks hold down
[VAL] Jim Smith wood pics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 00:17:50 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Grounded to Frame, GFI's and Hypothetical Scenarios

Neutral and ground in the RV are to be kept isolated from each other. In
the olden days, the panel in the RV was considered to be a service
entrance panel and in the service entrance panel ground and neutral are
connected. That's the ONLY place they are connected in the modern scheme
of wiring. Today, the service panel for the RV Park is the last place
neutral and ground are connected together. They are kept separate
through the service pedestal and the RV main panel.

I checked into the wiring in a mobile home park (same as RV except they
can have a couple 50 amp 240 volt lines) that was missing the separate
wire for neutral and ground to each pedestal an the local electrical
inspector was threatening to close the place unless they rewired (20
years ago or so). As far as I can tell, they either ran another
conductor to separate neutral and ground to each pedestal or closed
down. There wasn't any in between that could be negotiated. I tried.

In your hypothetical case sans GFCI, until the breaker/fuse feeding the
mixmaster opens, there can be some voltage between the trailer frame and
the local earth surface. Whether Junior feels it or not depends on many
things. Primarily the sizes of the wires on the hot and the ground and
their lengths. Ground may be grounded in the pedestal making the voltage
drop to the local earth less than the voltage drop on the hot wire
coming all the way from the RV park service panel. That cuts the
fraction of the normal 120 volts line voltage that Junior feels from the
short term voltage drop in the ground.

When three wire (two wire with ground) circuits and romex first came
into use the NEC allowed the ground wire to be smaller than the hot and
neutral wires. Later that was changed, hoping to reduce the hot foot
your hypothetical Junior sees.

Since maintaining a good ground wire on appliances and tools has proven
to be more than a little difficult in the real world, the GFCI was
developed for better outdoor (and bathroom and kitchen) safety. If
neutral and ground touch on the downstream side of a GFCI receptacle, it
will trip for any electrical load. There's no shock hazard but the GFCI
compares the hot wire current to the return current in the neutral and
if they aren't exactly the same (or the difference less than 5/1000
amp), it trips. Double insulated tools were another result of the limits
of maintaining good grounds, and for the bathroom appliances likely to
be dropped into the sink full of water, like the hair dryer, a GFCI that
is part of their plug is commonly used. Could also be applied to the
mixmaster in the kitchen to improve safety.

There are differing opinions on grounding around the world. In Britain,
their 250 volt power circuits float completely, there is no grounded
neutral, but there is a ground wire on each appliance. In some US
industrial situations 480 volt power circuits are not grounded. Their
theory is that if there's one accidental ground they don't have to shut
down. But few check at all to detect that one ground and when the second
one happens their problems are far greater than if they'd had a grounded
power source and had to fix it after the first ground fault.

US safety depends on grounding being superior to the feed circuits when
there's a short. I believe that is not based on a thorough analysis of
the ground circuit (especially where dirt is part of that ground
circuit) and that series insulation, like double insulated tools along
with good local grounding increases safety. I don't think that its
greatest to connect power line grounds to local grounds, but I'm a
minority of one with that opinion as far as I can tell, as the locally
increased ground wire to earth voltage does cause problems in diary
milking parlors. But the voltage present does not present a safety
hazard to people with normal skin moisture. The cow gets it through the
milk or her nose in the watering bowl and her feet on the ground. More
so if she's irrigated that ground in the milking stall. She feels less
than a volt, and gets very upset when she feels a couple volts. People
generally can't feel less than 20 or 30 volts unless their skin is
really wet or worn away (to the point of bleeding).

Gerald
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:27:46 -0500
From: praimond@xxxxxxxxxx.net
Subject: [VAL] Re: Pearl

Hi Pearl,

Please stay on the list so that I can keep you posted on the progress of my "Pearl", 
1954 Flying Cloud! You can continue to add to the list by recounting past work you did 
on your Airstream. And the biggest reason, we'll all miss you!

Patti







- ----- Original Message -----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com (VAL Digest)
Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 1:00 am
Subject: VAL Digest V1 #127

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 01:00:09 -0600
From: waymark1@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #127 - Combo W/Ds for your RV?

These units are not made specifically for RV's. They are popular outside
the US in countries where floor space is at a premium, and water,
electricity and detergent are expensive.
The vented units are cheaper and cost less to run, plus are less
complicated than the condensing models. Condensing models are for
installations where outside venting is not practical. They use cold water
to chill the dryer exhaust and condense the moisture coming out of the
clothes, then it goes down the drain. In RV installations unless you are
extremely averse to making a vent (it can be through the floor so it
doesn't show outside) the vented models are preferable.
The pluses are:
Use little water - not of much concern if you are in a flat rate park
Use little electricity - not of much concern if you are in a flat rate
park 
Use little detergent as compared with top loader washers
Take up less floor space than separate washer-dryer sets
Take up less overhead space than stacked washer-dryer sets, though as the
combos are front loaders you may want to install it on a pedestal to keep
from having to bend over so far. The pedestal can have a drawer or
cabinet in it.
Weigh less than separate or stacked washer-dryer sets

Minuses:
Expensive compared to separate or stacked washer-dryer sets. However
floor space in RVs is at a premium, so the extra expense can easily be
worth it.
Can do only one load at a time (cannot have a second wash load going
while drying the first wash load)
Relatively small dryer capacity since the same drum is used for drying as
for washing
Not distributed like major brand conventional washers and dryers, so
service can be a problem if you have a breakdown far from a service
provider

You can do a lot of washloads in park laundromats for what one of these
things costs, plus the laundromat doesn't take up any space in your RV.
And if the laundromat machine breaks down, it isn't your problem.

Al

> 
> Back to more modern issues--has anyone used one of the combo
washer/dryer units for RV's that I see advertised? Are they effective,
are they water and energy efficient, etc?
> 
> John

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 08:15:07 -0700
From: "Fred Coldwell" <agrijeep@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Pearl Main

Pearl:

  Thank you for your numerous stories over the past few
years of you and your husband pulling the '64 Airstream
around the country behind your stout International
Travelall.  Those tales put a clear picture in my mind's eye
of the fun and adventure you two had.  They also kept me up
late at night scouring the Internet for a nice used
Travelall to pull my vintage Airstream.  I still keep my
eyes peeled for a keeper and driver.
  
  I'll always remember the lesson you taught us by letting
your husband drive the last 1/2 mile into each Rally after
his driving skills had deteriorated to the point where he
could no longer drive much at all.  That kind gesture let
him retain his manliness in the eyes of others back then and
kept him going to the various events.  How thoughtful and
practical!   

  Please consider staying subscribed to the VAL List. Think
of it as "virtual trailering" or another way to extend your
ability to stay in touch with WBCCI members and other old
trailer owners.   You still have many great remembrances,
stories and useful tips to share with us, and I for one
would love to hear them.  I trailer in today's world every
day.  But to travel back into trailering during the 1950's,
now that really gets my wheels spinning.  Pearl, you have
our best wishes whatever your choice, but I hope to whoose
to stay connected. 

Warmest regards,

Fred Coldwell
VAC Archive Historian    




Tom Patterson wrote:
> 
> Pearl has asked me to remove her from the Vintage Airstream List, as she has
> sold her trailer and van about a week ago.  She says that she does plan on
> maintaining her W.B.C.C.I. membership, and may even make it out to an
> International.
> 
> For your information, here is a copy of the last message she sent to me.  I
> am going to remove her from the list as she has requested, but thought that
> some of you might like to say goodby.
> 
> -Tom
> 
> hi    Tom:   since I no longer have a vintage and will not be doiing any
> repair guess I will fade into the sunset.     My dughter from Illinois
> is ariving Sunday and  she is tlking about my moving into a retirement
> facility here there are lots of activities and would keep me busy.
> Hd the trailer from 1964  which was a long time....keeping WBCCI
> membership   some old friends still around.
> Pearl
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
> 
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:15:00 EST
From: MaryDotson@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #127

In a message dated 1/14/2004 1:03:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com writes:
  Back to more modern issues--has anyone used one of the combo
  washer/dryer units for RV's that I see advertised? Are they effective,
  are they water and energy efficient, etc?

  John
I don't know what kind you are speaking of exactly (single combined machine 
or stackers), but a bit over ten years ago, I lived in London and the woman who 
I subleased a flat from owned a german (miele, I think) front loading 
washer/dryer.  The same machine (small capacity) both washed and dried clothes. In my 
view, it was superior (in effectiveness) to toploading machines for washing 
clothes, but inferior to conventional machines in drying them.  So, more often 
than not, we ended up line drying our stuff.

A year and a half ago, many similar machines were featured in the US Dept of 
Energy's Solar Decathalon (which, incidently, featured a eco friendly 
retrofitted modern A/S).  At that, a number of entries (from competing universities) 
featured the combined washer/dryer units, because they are exceptionally 
water/energy efficient.  These are all made in Europe, are verrrrrry expensive (@ 
$1k), small,  and generally outperform machines on resource efficiency (even US 
products with Energy Star qualification).  However, the folks I spoke to on 
the decathalon teams agreed--they still don't quite dry clothes as well as 
conventional dryers--but it might be an effective compromise, since they are nice, 
efficient and small.  And as far as washing clothes, that little thing got me 
hooked, I now own a front loader as my main home washing machine and would 
never return to toploaders.

That said, I don't think you could ever run this while boondocking, so the 
efficiency might be moot if you had to have hookups anyways, though the space 
savings might make it worthwhile.  Bear in mind, though, it still is a large 
thing to fit in a trailer (but I could see it taking the place of, say, the 
dresser in our Safari double).

On the other hand, the manual machine I linked to before is much smaller 
(something that could fit, say, on a kitchen shelf).  I have never heard of 
anything like that metal one you described.  I like the idea of getting a system to 
clean clothes so you can take less and avoid laundromats--but I can't figure 
out if these manual things really work--or are durable enough to last more than 
1-2 wash cycles...

To all of you who emailed me publically and privately about your laundry 
experiences, I think we may have a thing here!  Seems A/S road grunge brings out 
the dirty (but thankfully not risque) memories!

Mary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:23:20 -0500
From: "Jim Stewart" <9stewart@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Grounded to Frame, GFI's and Hypothetical Scenarios

Why do campgrounds have GFI's on the 20 amp circuit, but not the 30 amp
circuit? Will the Portable 30 amp GFCI Power Cords sold at Camping World
provide protection to our vintage trailers without further modifications?

Jim
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: [VAL] Grounded to Frame, GFI's and Hypothetical Scenarios


> Neutral and ground in the RV are to be kept isolated from each other. In
> the olden days, the panel in the RV was considered to be a service
> entrance panel and in the service entrance panel ground and neutral are
> connected. That's the ONLY place they are connected in the modern scheme
> of wiring. Today, the service panel for the RV Park is the last place
> neutral and ground are connected together. They are kept separate
> through the service pedestal and the RV main panel.
>
> I checked into the wiring in a mobile home park (same as RV except they
> can have a couple 50 amp 240 volt lines) that was missing the separate
> wire for neutral and ground to each pedestal an the local electrical
> inspector was threatening to close the place unless they rewired (20
> years ago or so). As far as I can tell, they either ran another
> conductor to separate neutral and ground to each pedestal or closed
> down. There wasn't any in between that could be negotiated. I tried.
>
> In your hypothetical case sans GFCI, until the breaker/fuse feeding the
> mixmaster opens, there can be some voltage between the trailer frame and
> the local earth surface. Whether Junior feels it or not depends on many
> things. Primarily the sizes of the wires on the hot and the ground and
> their lengths. Ground may be grounded in the pedestal making the voltage
> drop to the local earth less than the voltage drop on the hot wire
> coming all the way from the RV park service panel. That cuts the
> fraction of the normal 120 volts line voltage that Junior feels from the
> short term voltage drop in the ground.
>
> When three wire (two wire with ground) circuits and romex first came
> into use the NEC allowed the ground wire to be smaller than the hot and
> neutral wires. Later that was changed, hoping to reduce the hot foot
> your hypothetical Junior sees.
>
> Since maintaining a good ground wire on appliances and tools has proven
> to be more than a little difficult in the real world, the GFCI was
> developed for better outdoor (and bathroom and kitchen) safety. If
> neutral and ground touch on the downstream side of a GFCI receptacle, it
> will trip for any electrical load. There's no shock hazard but the GFCI
> compares the hot wire current to the return current in the neutral and
> if they aren't exactly the same (or the difference less than 5/1000
> amp), it trips. Double insulated tools were another result of the limits
> of maintaining good grounds, and for the bathroom appliances likely to
> be dropped into the sink full of water, like the hair dryer, a GFCI that
> is part of their plug is commonly used. Could also be applied to the
> mixmaster in the kitchen to improve safety.
>
> There are differing opinions on grounding around the world. In Britain,
> their 250 volt power circuits float completely, there is no grounded
> neutral, but there is a ground wire on each appliance. In some US
> industrial situations 480 volt power circuits are not grounded. Their
> theory is that if there's one accidental ground they don't have to shut
> down. But few check at all to detect that one ground and when the second
> one happens their problems are far greater than if they'd had a grounded
> power source and had to fix it after the first ground fault.
>
> US safety depends on grounding being superior to the feed circuits when
> there's a short. I believe that is not based on a thorough analysis of
> the ground circuit (especially where dirt is part of that ground
> circuit) and that series insulation, like double insulated tools along
> with good local grounding increases safety. I don't think that its
> greatest to connect power line grounds to local grounds, but I'm a
> minority of one with that opinion as far as I can tell, as the locally
> increased ground wire to earth voltage does cause problems in diary
> milking parlors. But the voltage present does not present a safety
> hazard to people with normal skin moisture. The cow gets it through the
> milk or her nose in the watering bowl and her feet on the ground. More
> so if she's irrigated that ground in the milking stall. She feels less
> than a volt, and gets very upset when she feels a couple volts. People
> generally can't feel less than 20 or 30 volts unless their skin is
> really wet or worn away (to the point of bleeding).
>
> Gerald
> --
> Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
> Reproduction by permission only.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:37:48 +0000
From: hex-n-tex@xxxxxxxxxx.net
Subject: [VAL] Re:all those caps / VAL Digest V1 #127

Hello Roger,
I guess I should never confuse you with "Jolly Roger" eh? <G>

You gotta know that I am so computer illiterate (still), so please help me 
here.
Can I really break my keyboard by using too many caps?
Lord I just paid $9.00 for the thing last month and would dread losing that 
investment. How many more caps you reckon it's got in it??
Seems it would annoy folks if I just wrote in lower case only. But then it 
paid the bills for old e.e.cummings didn't it? <G>

Actually I have no idea how to format Bold face or Italics on this list.
My Office program is down and I use Notepad and Wordpad only and I hoped it 
was obvious that was "highlighting" the actual part names of the Zip Dee to 
attempt to help a fellow streamer.

Since I find no < G > grin marks (aka just kiddings) in your post I just 
don't know whether you are offended or not. If you were seriously affected I 
hope maybe Murine or Visene will give you relief. If you are just havin a bit 
of fun, as you can see I'm all for that too, and I look forward to meetin' 
you some fine eve and I'll buy the night-CAPs.
So Here's "Mud In Your Eye"! <G>

++HeX++
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 09:28:33 -0700
> From: "Roger Hightower" <rwhigh@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: awning question (ZIP DEE) Digest #126
> 
> Gee, hex-n-tex, I hope you're keyboard isn't broken. All those caps.
> 
> Roger
> 
> ------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:46:30 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] why 20 and not 30 A GFI in campgrounds?

I think mostly because the NEC mandated GFI for some 15 and 20 amp
residential and industrial receptacles, and so the makers of GFI didn't
plan for a 30 amp rated device. And then the residential/industrial
applications were extended to the campground. With few exceptions, the
NEC has always had a policy of, "if it works it doesn't need to be
upgraded" when the code is changed. E.g. old stuff is grand fathered,
though these days knob and tube wiring is no longer accepted if there
are any revisions needed. Today 30 amp GFI do exist, but aren't yet
mandated in RV pedestals. Possibly partly because the 20 amp receptacle
is the common one used by all 120 volt loads camper mounted or portable,
and the 30 amp receptacle is unique to the camper which can have its own
panel and GFCI.

The NEC is not created by committees of omniscient beings, its made by
mortals, members of the National Fire Protection Association (I was a
member for about 20 years). Besides overall coordinating committees,
each section has a committee generally made up of representatives from
manufactures, consulting engineers, electricians, and electrical
inspectors. For each new code edition (normally a three year cycle),
anyone can submit a petition for change. That will be considered by the
appropriate committee(s) and they will produce a discussion and vote.
Then before the annual NFPA meeting, a book is printed with ALL the
proposals, the discussions (both from the proposer and the committee),
and the committee recommendation. That book is often several times as
large as the final NEC. The MEMBERSHIP of the NFPA present at the annual
meeting then votes to approve or disapprove. Introduction of a new
product (such as Carlon plastic conduit) can get very political with the
entrenched vendors working hard to prevent the new easier to use
product. Of course, their arguments will always be couched in terms of
safety of the end user.

So you could petition for 30 amp GFI receptacles in campgrounds and even
petition for requiring them to be retrofitted ASAP. You would have to
provide logical and documented proof that the mandated receptacles and
retrofit saved more lives than the cost of the retrofit. Sometimes such
a revision to the code is rejected through several code revision cycles
until the proposer gathers enough evidence to make the case, or the
product actually becomes practical.

I think the portable 30 amp GFCI power cords will provide protection to
trailers, with one caveat. I have grown to dislike portable GFCI in
general. This is because the GFCI is often perceived as an ultra finicky
and fragile box, more likely to fail than the RV or the power tool (on
the construction site) and when it trips, the first test (and often the
simplest test) is to unplug the GFCI and plug the RV or tool in
directly. Thereby exposing the RV or tool user to the EXACT HAZARD the
GFCI is supposed to prevent. If one trusts the GFCI and works to test
and repair the load the GFCI indicates is faulty, or tests the GFCI by
replacement, it can be safe. Its when its taken from the circuit after
it trips that the extreme hazard occurs.

I investigated a case where the tool user knew that the ground wire on
his Skil saw was there to protect him. When he was tickled, he inspected
and retaped all his saw cord repairs. That killed him. The problem was
in the power distribution on the work site where neutral was connected
to the ground pin in the receptacle box and the neutral was run several
hundred feet crossing a street on the development before it reached the
power pedestal. Truck traffic broke the neutral, so the tool user got
120 volts from his own saw or any other tool turned on when he picked up
his Skil saw. There was nothing wrong with the Skil saw though the cord
splices were crudely made. The "electrician" who set up the work place
portable wiring settled before a lawsuit was filed. If the tool user had
been using a portable GFCI on his saw cord, he would have been saved,
but taking out of the circuit to isolate the reason the saw wouldn't run
would have likely killed him anyway.

Sorry to be so gory, but these incidents make my point and will stick
with me for a long time.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:51:30 -0700
From: "Roger Hightower" <rwhigh@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re:all those caps / VAL Digest V1 #127

Hex-n-Tex.  Not offended at all.

The "convention" for emphasis in e-mails is to bracket the desired text in
either * or _.  Serves the purpose nicely.

No one ever accused me of being jolly, :-)

Roger

Roger Hightower
WBCCI #4165,VAC
1975 31' Sovereign
Mesa, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:03:59 -0500
From: Rick Langer <farreach@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Winter Polishing

I'm considering getting back to my polishing project a little early this
year. I know I can't polish in the sun during summer, but is it OK to polish
in the sun in winter? My plan is to compound only with the temps right
around 25 - 35.  With no leaves on the trees I have no shade, but if I had
shade it would probably be too cold to be out there. Has anybody tried
polishing in the winter?
Rick Langer
'66 GT #3847, VAC, TCT

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:08:11 -0500
From: "T o m" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #127 - Combo W/Ds for your RV?

We have the washer/dryer combo in our 34' Classic FK model.

Works great, the machine is an import.  Allows us to do small loads at the
campsite.  Cost on a new unit is about $900 - 1000.00

Tom
WBCCI 5303

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: <waymark1@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 2:00 AM
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #127 - Combo W/Ds for your RV?


> These units are not made specifically for RV's. They are popular outside
> the US in countries where floor space is at a premium, and water,
> electricity and detergent are expensive.
> The vented units are cheaper and cost less to run, plus are less
> complicated than the condensing models. Condensing models are for
> installations where outside venting is not practical. They use cold water
> to chill the dryer exhaust and condense the moisture coming out of the
> clothes, then it goes down the drain. In RV installations unless you are
> extremely averse to making a vent (it can be through the floor so it
> doesn't show outside) the vented models are preferable.
> The pluses are:
> Use little water - not of much concern if you are in a flat rate park
> Use little electricity - not of much concern if you are in a flat rate
> park
> Use little detergent as compared with top loader washers
> Take up less floor space than separate washer-dryer sets
> Take up less overhead space than stacked washer-dryer sets, though as the
> combos are front loaders you may want to install it on a pedestal to keep
> from having to bend over so far. The pedestal can have a drawer or
> cabinet in it.
> Weigh less than separate or stacked washer-dryer sets
>
> Minuses:
> Expensive compared to separate or stacked washer-dryer sets. However
> floor space in RVs is at a premium, so the extra expense can easily be
> worth it.
> Can do only one load at a time (cannot have a second wash load going
> while drying the first wash load)
> Relatively small dryer capacity since the same drum is used for drying as
> for washing
> Not distributed like major brand conventional washers and dryers, so
> service can be a problem if you have a breakdown far from a service
> provider
>
> You can do a lot of washloads in park laundromats for what one of these
> things costs, plus the laundromat doesn't take up any space in your RV.
> And if the laundromat machine breaks down, it isn't your problem.
>
> Al
>
> >
> > Back to more modern issues--has anyone used one of the combo
> washer/dryer units for RV's that I see advertised? Are they effective,
> are they water and energy efficient, etc?
> >
> > John
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:47:42 -0800
From: "Tim  Shephard" <timshephard@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: RE: [VAL] Winter Polishing

Rick,

My experience polishing with Nuvite is that right at 60F it stops working.
Over 80F it stops working.  So you have about a 20 degree window there to
get the job done.

Under 60F the polish just starts smearing instead of cutting and you end up
wasting your polish $$ and time.

- -Tim
www.telecom-pros.com/tim/tim
eFax (508)590-0320


- -----Original Message-----
Subject: [VAL] Winter Polishing

I'm considering getting back to my polishing project a little early this
year. I know I can't polish in the sun during summer, but is it OK to polish
in the sun in winter? My plan is to compound only with the temps right
around 25 - 35.  With no leaves on the trees I have no shade, but if I had
shade it would probably be too cold to be out there. Has anybody tried
polishing in the winter?
Rick Langer
'66 GT #3847, VAC, TCT

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:28:39 -0700
From: "gshippen" <gshippen@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #125

Jim,

It gives me great solace knowing that you have the courage and fortitude to
join the computer age, to express your ideas and contribute in such a
positive way to society through your Vintage Airstream experiences.

Happy Trails, GAS
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <JSmith1805@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #125


> Jim Smith took no offence at any of the remarks and knew in which they
were
> offered in fact they helped make my day. wount it be fun if some day a
bunch of
> us old farts could get togeather around a camp fire and talk about those
> bygon days and have some one wia cam corder record the conversation? It
might give
> the younger generations a better ida from whince they came.
> Jim Smith
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:39:58 -0700
From: "gshippen" <gshippen@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Winter Polishing

Hi Rick,

I have polished in February and March here in Wyoming.  If the temp. is too
cold the compound is very stiff and over works the tools.  So I polished in
the sun or at an angle slightly off-perpendicular to the suns rays.  It
works and you can enjoy the warm parts of the day, it also gives one a lift
out of the doldrums of winter.  Good luck, GAS
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Langer" <farreach@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 10:03 AM
Subject: [VAL] Winter Polishing


> I'm considering getting back to my polishing project a little early this
> year. I know I can't polish in the sun during summer, but is it OK to
polish
> in the sun in winter? My plan is to compound only with the temps right
> around 25 - 35.  With no leaves on the trees I have no shade, but if I had
> shade it would probably be too cold to be out there. Has anybody tried
> polishing in the winter?
> Rick Langer
> '66 GT #3847, VAC, TCT
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:05:28 -0700
From: "Kenneth E. Johansen" <johansen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Winter Polishing

Rick

The makers of polish recommend polishing in temps greater than 60 degrees

Ken J.

At 12:03 PM 1/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>I'm considering getting back to my polishing project a little early this
>year. I know I can't polish in the sun during summer, but is it OK to polish
>in the sun in winter? My plan is to compound only with the temps right
>around 25 - 35.  With no leaves on the trees I have no shade, but if I had
>shade it would probably be too cold to be out there. Has anybody tried
>polishing in the winter?
>Rick Langer
>'66 GT #3847, VAC, TCT
>
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>
>To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:16:18 -0500
From: Dick Kenan <as5368@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #127 - Combo W/Ds for your RV?

>Works great, the machine is an import.  Allows us to do small loads at the
>campsite.

Hi, Tom:

         Some campgrounds don't allow washers to be operated at their 
sites, because of the impact on their septic fields.  Top O' Georgia is one 
such campground.   At one time, they would not even allow a unit with a 
washer into the park; that was over the top, and they changed it to "don't 
operate it here."
         I'm not expert on septic fields, so I don't know whether this is 
reasonable or not.  It may just be that they have no control over what 
detergents, etc, are used.

- - Dick
(5368)

"The trouble with most folks isn't so much their ignorance, as knowing so 
many things that ain't so."
- -- Josh Billings
- ---------------------------------------
Dick Kenan Tel: 770-451-0672
Retired and loving it!
WBCCI # 5368, 28' 1995 Excella
Atlanta
mailto:as5368@xxxxxxxxxx.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~as5368/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 19:15:49 EST
From: JSmith1805@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #127 - Combo W/Ds for your RV?

Did it eaver occur to any of you that you can cut cown on laundry by turning 
your underware and socks inside outand wareing them the 2nd day and therefore 
get both sides dirty before doin your laundry. 
Jim Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 20:03:23 -0800
From: "michelle" <safoocat@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #127 - Combo W/Ds for your RV?

or not wearing any at all. you can also wear your clothes in the shower.
Michelle

Happiness comes of the capacity to
feel deeply, to enjoy simply, to thank
freely, to risk life, to be needed.
~ Samuel Jameson ~

Did it eaver occur to any of you that you can cut cown on laundry by turning
your underware and socks inside outand wareing them the 2nd day and
therefore
get both sides dirty before doin your laundry.
Jim Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 21:03:25 -0500
From: Blair <hitek_airstream@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Pearl Main

>I think Fred said it all please stay with us Pearl.


Blair







>   Please consider staying subscribed to the VAL List. Think
>of it as "virtual trailering" or another way to extend your
>ability to stay in touch with WBCCI members and other old
>trailer owners.   You still have many great remembrances,
>stories and useful tips to share with us, and I for one
>would love to hear them.  I trailer in today's world every
>day.  But to travel back into trailering during the 1950's,
>now that really gets my wheels spinning.  Pearl, you have
>our best wishes whatever your choice, but I hope to whoose
>to stay connected.
>
>Warmest regards,
>
>Fred Coldwell
>VAC Archive Historian
>
>
>
>
>Tom Patterson wrote:
> >
> > Pearl has asked me to remove her from the Vintage Airstream List, as 
> she has
> > sold her trailer and van about a week ago.  She says that she does plan on
> > maintaining her W.B.C.C.I. membership, and may even make it out to an
> > International.
> >
> > For your information, here is a copy of the last message she sent to me.  I
> > am going to remove her from the list as she has requested, but thought that
> > some of you might like to say goodby.
> >
> > -Tom
> >
> > hi    Tom:   since I no longer have a vintage and will not be doiing any
> > repair guess I will fade into the sunset.     My dughter from Illinois
> > is ariving Sunday and  she is tlking about my moving into a retirement
> > facility here there are lots of activities and would keep me busy.
> > Hd the trailer from 1964  which was a long time....keeping WBCCI
> > membership   some old friends still around.
> > Pearl
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
> >
> > To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> > http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 18:26:36 -0800
From: Glyn Judson <glynjudson@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Propane tanks hold down

    All,

    I'm looking for a source for the cast aluminum hold down that I've seen
on others Airstream tongues.  All I had when I got our Caravel was the long
(12"?) aluminum tanks grabber.  Recently I see that there appears to be
another smaller piece that is used above it for tightening everything down.

    I just looked at Inland RV's web site and couldn't find it.

    Can anyone help me locate a complete kit or at least the top handle
part?  

    Thanks,

    Glyn Judson
    1969 Caravel #508
    Santa Monica CA
    and nothing to tow it with.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 20:50:48 -0600
From: "James C. Funderburg, MD, FACS" <funderbj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #127 - Combo W/Ds for your RV?

JSmith1805@xxxxxxxxxx.com wrote:
> Did it eaver occur to any of you that you can cut cown on laundry by
> turning your underware and socks inside outand wareing them the 2nd
> day and therefore get both sides dirty before doin your laundry.
> Jim Smith

    Actually, Jim, now that I am about to start my sixth decade, I have
enough varicose veins around my ankles that it looks like I am wearing blue
socks!  Thus, no sock laundry at all!

JimF - a pilgrim still       <*}}}><
Waterproof, Louisiana
"Preserve game, use a trained dog."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 04 20:14:07 -0700
From: Roy Lashway <rlashway@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Winter Polishing

> My plan is to compound only with the temps right
>around 25 - 35.  
===========
You should check out the temp. specs. of the mfg of your polish to insure 
it will do what it intends at such low temperatures.  My stuff, Rolite, 
says 60 degees at minimum.

Roy Lashway
'78 Argosy,'56 Bubble
WBCCI 1610     VAC
rlashway@xxxxxxxxxx.com
web site: www.zianet.com/rlashway
   (polishing report included)  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 21:41:14 -0600
From: Kevin D Allen <overlander64@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: RE: [VAL] Propane tanks hold down

Greetings Glynn!

I just recently purchased the tank bracket that you are describing from
Ace Fogdall RV in Cedar Falls, Iowa.  If my memory serves, the total
cost of both pieces was less than $40.00.  You might try an e-mail to
Florence and Christy in the parts department, I am sure that they could
supply the details.  You can find the parts department contact
information at:

http://www.acefogdallrv.com/

It is evidently a current Airstream part that should be available from
any Airstream dealer.

Good luck with your search!

Kevin

Kevin D. Allen
1964 Overlander International/1999 GMC K2500 Suburban
1978 Argosy Minuet
1975 Cadillac Convertible (towcar in-training)
WBCCI/VAC #6359
 

- -----Original Message-----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com
[mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com] On Behalf Of Glyn Judson
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 8:27 PM
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Propane tanks hold down

    All,

    I'm looking for a source for the cast aluminum hold down that I've
seen
on others Airstream tongues.  All I had when I got our Caravel was the
long
(12"?) aluminum tanks grabber.  Recently I see that there appears to be
another smaller piece that is used above it for tightening everything
down.

    I just looked at Inland RV's web site and couldn't find it.

    Can anyone help me locate a complete kit or at least the top handle
part?  

    Thanks,

    Glyn Judson
    1969 Caravel #508
    Santa Monica CA
    and nothing to tow it with.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 20:18:58 -0800
From: Joann Wheatley <jwheatle@xxxxxxxxxx.edu>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Propane tanks hold down

Kevin: I'm in the same boat - neat a propane tank hold down or some 
kind of mounting system but for only one tank. I'd like to mount the 
tank and two batteries on the tongue and need a mounting system and 
possibly an enclosure. I'm thinking of mounting the batteries, each in 
a battery box, one atop the other. Any ideas on that arrangement?
Jo Ann
On 14, Jan 2004, at 7:41 PM, Kevin D Allen wrote:

> Greetings Glynn!
>
> I just recently purchased the tank bracket that you are describing from
> Ace Fogdall RV in Cedar Falls, Iowa.  If my memory serves, the total
> cost of both pieces was less than $40.00.  You might try an e-mail to
> Florence and Christy in the parts department, I am sure that they could
> supply the details.  You can find the parts department contact
> information at:
>
> http://www.acefogdallrv.com/
>
> It is evidently a current Airstream part that should be available from
> any Airstream dealer.
>
> Good luck with your search!
>
> Kevin
>
> Kevin D. Allen
> 1964 Overlander International/1999 GMC K2500 Suburban
> 1978 Argosy Minuet
> 1975 Cadillac Convertible (towcar in-training)
> WBCCI/VAC #6359
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> [mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com] On Behalf Of Glyn Judson
> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 8:27 PM
> To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> Subject: [VAL] Propane tanks hold down
>
>     All,
>
>     I'm looking for a source for the cast aluminum hold down that I've
> seen
> on others Airstream tongues.  All I had when I got our Caravel was the
> long
> (12"?) aluminum tanks grabber.  Recently I see that there appears to be
> another smaller piece that is used above it for tightening everything
> down.
>
>     I just looked at Inland RV's web site and couldn't find it.
>
>     Can anyone help me locate a complete kit or at least the top handle
> part?
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Glyn Judson
>     1969 Caravel #508
>     Santa Monica CA
>     and nothing to tow it with.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:25:04 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Propane tanks hold down

The top piece is a wide wing nut. Nothing more, nothing less. Could be
carved from an aluminum bar with a band saw, drum sander, file, plus a
drill and tap to fit the hold down post thread. Its definitely stylish,
and with the modern valve and hose connection that needs no wrench it
makes it easy to remove the tanks when threatened by fire or when they
need refilling. It also makes it easy for an unauthorized person to
abscond with the tanks.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 21:21:35 -0700
From: "gshippen" <gshippen@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Pearl Main

Pearl,
I too second what Fred has stated.  You have contributed so much...it has
been great fun listening...please do stay with us.

Gerald Shippen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 21:22:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Amanda Meeker <goldens510@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Pearl Main

Pearl,

I was going to try to keep my own counsel, but I find I can't resist joining the 
rising chorus: please stay! I remember some sage advice you gave me offlist after my 
trailer's forklift accident a year or so ago, and I want to say that you have so much 
to offer by virtue of your experience, whether you still are actively Airstreaming or 
not. But of course, this list can be a lot to keep up with, so if you do sign off,  
know we'll miss you!

Best wishes for all your future endeavors,

Amanda
'68 Safari
Sacramento

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 23:32:31 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Propane tanks hold down

Holding a pair of tanks is easier than holding a single tank. The double
tank holder just needs a bottom pan large enough to hold the two tanks
and a single threaded rod up between the tanks with a cross bar and nut.
The cross bar has a balanced load and so doesn't bend or bend the rod.
Holding a single tank can't have that simplicity unless there's a post
taking the place of the second tank under the cross bar (though it can
be closer to the hold down rod than the second tank. Or the hold down
rod has to be a lot fatter with the hold down bar made into a right
angle to push sideways against the fatter hold down rod. I saw a propane
tank holder on a scissors lift last week. It had two metal straps to go
around the tank with metal latches, much like those used to hold the
front window protector down on my Caravel. A single tank hold down could
use two hold down rods and a single cross bar passing over the tank's
top with two hold down nuts. The pan could be made from 1/8" inch
aluminum or steel sheet with at least three bolt heads acting to
restrain the base of the tank. The bottom pan could be made from a
suitable kitchen frying pan that fit the bottom of the tank with the
handle removed and its mounting cut off. If that frying pan wasn't
teflon coated, its origin sans handle might be less obvious. It should
have a drain hole or two so the tank doesn't sit in water during and
after a rain. The cross bar could be made from 1 x 1 or 1 x 1-1/2"
aluminum. The hold down rods could be made from 1/2" threaded rod. The
nuts could be carved from similar aluminum bar pieces or could be
standard wing or hex nuts.

A waste basket inverted might make a propane tank cover. It would be
nicer if it was cylindrical rather than tapered. A good metal worker
could take a sufficiently large stainless steel bowl, cut off the rim
and use that for the top of a cover made of stainless or aluminum sheet
rolled into a tube. The bother with a cover is that it would have to
come off (or the top be opened) to allow access to the tank valve for
traveling if one travels with the tank valve shut off, as is required in
some localities.

Since batteries need attention to the connections and to their
electrolyte level, mounting the batteries side by side can make that
maintenance easier.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 00:59:22 -0500
From: "Tricia & Conrad Holsomback" <triconholsomback@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Jim Smith wood pics

Hi Jim,
Do you have any pictures on the site of your wood work in the Silver
Albatross?

Tricia & Conrad

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------------------------------

End of VAL Digest V1 #128
*************************


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