VAL Digest V1 #121

VAL Digest          Thursday, January 8 2004          Volume 01 : Number 121




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Topics in Today's Digest:

Re: [VAL] 63 Tradewind
[VAL] Brad's Airstream
Re: [VAL] Brad's Airstream
[VAL] Florida State Rally at Sarasota - Feb 18 
[VAL] power/FUTURE/pacers
Re: [VAL] Dura Torque name plate?
Re: [VAL] power/FUTURE/pacers
Re: [VAL] Brad's Airstream/toilet opperation?
[VAL] RE: FAQ's
RE: [VAL] Dura Torque name plate?
[VAL] 1970 Overlander
Re: [VAL] Florida State Rally at Sarasota - Feb 18
Re: [VAL] Brad's Airstream
[VAL] Achilles Heel of EU 2000 Generator?
Re: [VAL] Brad's Airstream/toilet opperation?
Re: [VAL] Brad's Airstream/toilet opperation?
[VAL] '65 Overlander
Re: [VAL] Achilles Heel of EU 2000 Generator?
Re: [VAL] Achilles Heel of EU 2000 Generator?
Re: [VAL] Achilles Heel of EU 2000 Generator?
Re: [VAL] Achilles Heel of EU 2000 Generator?
Re: [VAL] Achilles Heel of EU 2000 Generator?
[VAL] icing problems
Re: [VAL] Achilles Heel of EU 2000 Generator?
Re: [VAL] Brad's Airstream/toilet opperation?

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Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:19:55 -0500
From: "T o m" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 63 Tradewind

Brad,

OK then, sounds like you do have a plug style door unlike the newer
motorhomes that have that cheap, tinny cover which us usually white in
color.

See that roof vent?  What you need to do is to remove the top cover of the
roof vent and then underneath you will see a raised oval that comes up from
the skin and it will be covered with screening.  You will also see that you
can attach a metal strap across that oval opening.  In fact, install two of
them

Between these two metal straps you need to mount a computer fan, they draw
about .15amps at 12 volts DC.  Or maybe even less.  The outflow of the fan
should be "up", or up and out that roof vent.  This is very important that
the flow goes up from the bottom of that area, over the coils on the back of
the fridge and then out the chimney vent on the roof.

For the plug door you will need to cut out an area.  What I used was an
airconditioning ceiling register that I could manually open and close.  I
needed this so that I could control the air flow into the area behind the
fridge which then would be pulled up and out the chimney vent by the
computer fan.  Did I mention that after you mount the fan you need to
reinstall that cover over the chimney?  You do, but you knew that! ;))

The hole you cut out of the plug door needs to be SMALLER than the outside
dimension of the ceiling register.  The ceiling register will have a border,
or a lip, that you will securely attach to the exterior of the plug door
with aluminum screws or stainless screws, these would just be sheetmetal
screws, nothing fancy.

You will also want to put a bead of sealer all around that ceiling register
BEFORE you put the border of screws or other fasteners on the door itself.

What I also did - I dismantled the celing register by drilling out all the
blind rivets.  Then I cut some screening to size so that it would overlap
and those edges of the screen would be picked up by the fasteners when I
reinstalled the rivets.  What you are doing here is providing a barrier to
bugs while the vent is either open or closed the same as the top of the
chimney has as does the floor vent.  You have to make sure though that when
you reinstall the blind rivets that they don't interfere with the louver
operation.  I installed mine so that when the lever was down, the register
was closed.  All the louvers also angled downward so rain water wouldn't
collect on that area.

When you do the overhead computer fan you will need to drop down some 18ga
wires from the + and - sides of the computer fan.  Make sure you have the
outflow of the fan going UPwards because IF you wire this fan 'backwards' it
will PULL air down into the chimney which is NOT what you want to do.

On the interior wood wall I drilled a hole large enough for an LED
powerswitch.  Once it was all hooked up I could SAFELY run the fridge
without the wall getting hot.  And, I could then pull down the temp inside
the fridge in about 2 hours with LP.  In about 3 hours I was making ICE.

Does this help?

Tom
WBCCI 5303
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brad Norgaard" <stream2699@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: [VAL] 63 Tradewind


> Tom,
>
> Replacing the missing fridge was one of the first things I did to the
> trailer. Yes, I have a door but it doesn't give access to the bottom of
the
> fridge like on the old, missing one. New one is much taller. The access
door
> aligns mostly with the vertical center with the rear of the fridge. If you
> would like to see photos, mine is the only '59 Trade Wind on the vintage
> archive site:
>
> www.vintageairstream.com/archives1/59Tradewind/59TW.html
>
> Although both pictures of the curbside don't show the access door because
of
> the entry door, it is there and approximately 1 foot by 1 foot.
>
> Brad Norgaard
> Phoenix
> '59 Trade Wind Twin
> VAC #2699, TCT
>
> on 1/7/04 8:38 PM, T o m at tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com wrote:
>
> > Brad,
> >
> > Does your trailer have one of those doors (I call them plug doors) where
you
> > can remove or open it from the outside which is also right behind your
> > refrigerator?  Can you access that area at all?  Have you replaced the
> > refrigerator or installed a new one yet?
> >
> > Tom
>
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 02:29:58 -0500
From: "T o m" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: [VAL] Brad's Airstream

www.vintageairstream.com/archives1/59Tradewind/59TW.html

Brad,

You have done a super job on your Airstream!  Fantastic!

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 07:03:10 -0700
From: Brad Norgaard <stream2699@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Brad's Airstream

Tom,
Thanks for your kind words and for all of the assistance in getting the
fridge compartment to cool down. My fridge roof vent(s) are unlike anything
I have ever seen on another Airstream of this vintage. Do you think I could
install one fan in just one of the vents and that would work the same?
Thanks again.

Brad Norgaard
Phoenix
'59 Trade Wind Twin
VAC #2699, TCT 



> www.vintageairstream.com/archives1/59Tradewind/59TW.html
> 
> Brad,
> 
> You have done a super job on your Airstream!  Fantastic!
> 
> Tom

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 09:17:43 -0600
From: Herb Spies <spies@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Florida State Rally at Sarasota - Feb 18 

Is there a vintage parking area at the Florida Rally in Feb ?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:34:45 -0500
From: Gary <verygary@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: [VAL] power/FUTURE/pacers

Dear Val,
I have a '62 Safari that has a battery located up front under the front
window. I think I have read every post concerning inverters and
converters for the electrical supply, but since there is not one in my
trailer I am still not sure what they do. I do not have any of these
devices. Do I need one considering I have replaced the furnace and water
heater which now both have power igniters? Or if in the FUTURE I want to
add other electrical accessories or add a solar panel? I  am also
replacing the gigantic dometic with a smaller counter height model that
will need power brought to that. On the other axle subject, I just
introduced myself to a new Airstream owner locally that has a 1960 Pacer
with a leaf spring axle. So that's four to one.
Thanks,
Gary Campbell
Portland, Maine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 08:31:44 -0700
From: Charlie/Betty Burke <cbburke@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Dura Torque name plate?

John,

The metal tag is/was attached to the front of the axle about half way
between the center and roadside of the axle.
I'm surprised who ever you talked to at Airstream didn't tell you that
Inland RV is the source for Duro Torque axle for that age coach.

Charlie

John Sellers wrote:

> Gang,
>
> I called the Airstream factory today to see about getting a new Dura
> Torque axle installed on our 1960 Pacer.  (I know that conventional
> wisdom is that Airstream didn't switch to Dura-Torques until around
> 1962, but that's what it has.  No springs, and a square axle tube with
> trailing arms and shock absorbers.)  As a preliminary they asked me if I
> could get the information from an aluminum nameplate mounted somewhere
> on the axle.
>
> I don't remember seeing any nameplate when I had the brake drums off
> this summer for cleaning and repacking the wheel bearings.  Earlier this
> evening I crawled under the trailer and had a pretty good look around
> and couldn't find anything that looked like an identifying plate.  (Of
> course, the fact that temperatures were in the single digits and wind
> chill below zero, and I was working in the dark with a flashlight,
> didn't help any.)
>
> What am I looking for, and where is it usually located?  Is it a
> full-blown name plate with a bunch of information on it, or just a
> number tag with a string of digits?  And where did they usually put
> them?
>
> Of course it could be that there was a nameplate at one time, but it has
> parted company with the axle some time in the last 44 years. . .
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Sellers
> 1960 Pacer
> WBCCI/VAC #1587
> Dayton, Ohio
>
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 08:58:54 -0700
From: "Fred Coldwell" <agrijeep@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] power/FUTURE/pacers

Gary:

   Here's my pneumonic, non-technical way of remembering
what a converter and inverter do based on the first letter
of their name:

C = "contract", which reduces 120 volts a.c. to 12 volts
d.c.  
I = "increase"", which increases 12 volts d.c. to 120 volts
a.c.  

There are other parts and processes involved, but this is my
technically incorrect "big picture" memory jogger.   

The battery in your '62 trailer likely charged by the tow
vehicle alternator.  Univolts (transformers) were introduced
in 1964, and that first year they only reduced 120 volts
a.c. to 18 volts a.c.  to run lghts and  the fan.  There was
no battery charging feature in 1964 Univolts; that was added
in 1965. 

If you camp mostly in campgrounds with 120 volts a.c.
availabe, a converter with a3 stage battery charger will be
very useful.  If you boon dock where no 120 volts a.c. is
availab,e, an inverter would be useful.  A good book that
explains all this in detail is "Managing Twelve Volts"  by
Harold Barre, available at Camping World and other places.  
I had to read the book a few times before all this sunk it,
as it is a bit technical but ultimately understandable.  

Invest some time to buy and read this book.  It will prove
very useful during the balance of your trailering years. 

Fred Coldwell 

Gary wrote:
> 
> Dear Val,
> I have a '62 Safari that has a battery located up front under the front
> window. I think I have read every post concerning inverters and
> converters for the electrical supply, but since there is not one in my
> trailer I am still not sure what they do. I do not have any of these
> devices. Do I need one considering I have replaced the furnace and water
> heater which now both have power igniters? Or if in the FUTURE I want to
> add other electrical accessories or add a solar panel? I  am also
> replacing the gigantic dometic with a smaller counter height model that
> will need power brought to that. On the other axle subject, I just
> introduced myself to a new Airstream owner locally that has a 1960 Pacer
> with a leaf spring axle. So that's four to one.
> Thanks,
> Gary Campbell
> Portland, Maine
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
> 
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 08:52:03 -0700
From: "gshippen" <gshippen@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Brad's Airstream/toilet opperation?

Hi Brad,

Nice work on the Trade Wind.  I noticed that the toilet is identical to the
toilet in my Globe Trotter.  Does it automatically fill with water or do you
turn on the knob manually to fill the bowl?  I haven't figured out if mine
is missing something or if it is a manual operation.

It is some what of a problem with our four year old...she likes to turn it
on but forgets to shut it off!

Gerald

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 08:12:27 -0800
From: RJ.Dial@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] RE: FAQ's

I wrote the FAQ's on the VAC website while I was webmaster from
2000-2003.  As I know how much work they entail to maintain and update,
I moved them to my personal website last fall, and have updated them on
a regular basis since then.  They can be found at:

http://vintageairstream.com/FAQ/FAQ_index.html

I don't think my old version on the VAC site has been updated in awhile.

Later,
RJ
VintageAirstream.com

>
> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 05:53:26 +0000
> From: hex-n-tex@xxxxxxxxxx.net
> Subject: [none]
>
> Regarding the FAQ page at the VAC site:
>
> www.airstream.net/FAQ/FAQ_index.html
>
> Very helpful and interesting stuff, Where did it come from? i.e. is a
> compilation of recieved posts or did one person or committee
> put it together
> etc?
>
> How long since it has been reviewed or added to and who to
> contact about
> possible errors?
>
> I was directed there by a link from another forum. When I
> later tried to find
> it I could not. finally found the original link and got back in.
> Is it in a part of the VAC site that is private for members
> only? Maybe I
> just didn't see a link on the VaC pages that I can access??

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 08:15:49 -0800
From: RJ.Dial@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: RE: [VAL] Dura Torque name plate?

The oblong plate is usually riveted on the aft curbside & painted over
black.  Now since you would have one of the very first Duratorques, they
may have not put them on the initial production (but kinda doubt it).
RJ

>
> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 00:12:42 -0500
> From: John Sellers <sellersj@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
> Subject: [VAL] Dura Torque name plate?
>
> Gang,

>
> I don't remember seeing any nameplate when I had the brake drums off
> this summer for cleaning and repacking the wheel bearings.
> Earlier this
> evening I crawled under the trailer and had a pretty good look around
> and couldn't find anything that looked like an identifying plate.  (Of
> course, the fact that temperatures were in the single digits and wind
> chill below zero, and I was working in the dark with a flashlight,
> didn't help any.)
>
> What am I looking for, and where is it usually located?  Is it a
> full-blown name plate with a bunch of information on it, or just a
> number tag with a string of digits?  And where did they usually put
> them?
>
> Of course it could be that there was a nameplate at one time,
> but it has
> parted company with the axle some time in the last 44 years. . .
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Sellers
> 1960 Pacer
> WBCCI/VAC #1587
> Dayton, Ohio

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 11:58:54 -0500
From: gillguy@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] 1970 Overlander

Hello ALL
While out soliciting business today I came across a 1970 Overlander for sale.
It's 27 foot, though the owner has a title that has it listed at 30 foot.
Serial number 127TOJ198.
It's in real nice shape though it needs some work, as most do.
It's a rear bath model, center twin, sofa under window over trailer tongue.
It's all original, and still has the gas light inside.
The stuff I noticed that needs repaired are:
    Table top is in two pieces, need to replace hinge.
    Four tambor doors are removed and need to be reinstalled.
    One window seal on the streetside needs to be replaced or reattached.
    The panel inside the bumper storage is loose and needs 1 or 2 rivets shot
back in to reattach it.
His asking price is $4000.00 and if anyone is interested they can contact me
and I'll give you his number.
Thanks
Bobby Gill
Valdosta, GA
229-460-5195

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:10:30 -0500
From: Blair <hitek_airstream@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Florida State Rally at Sarasota - Feb 18

Usually ion  the front of the fair grounds outside the fence  so passers by 
can see them from the street.

Blair



At 10:17 AM 1/7/2004, you wrote:

>Is there a vintage parking area at the Florida Rally in Feb ?
>
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:16:39 -0500
From: "T o m" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Brad's Airstream

Can you send me a closeup picture of the stack on the roof as it is now?

Tom

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brad Norgaard" <stream2699@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [VAL] Brad's Airstream


> Tom,
> Thanks for your kind words and for all of the assistance in getting the
> fridge compartment to cool down. My fridge roof vent(s) are unlike
anything
> I have ever seen on another Airstream of this vintage. Do you think I
could
> install one fan in just one of the vents and that would work the same?
> Thanks again.
>
> Brad Norgaard
> Phoenix
> '59 Trade Wind Twin
> VAC #2699, TCT
>
>
>
> > www.vintageairstream.com/archives1/59Tradewind/59TW.html
> >
> > Brad,
> >
> > You have done a super job on your Airstream!  Fantastic!
> >
> > Tom
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 16:32:29 -0800
From: "JimW" <jjw@ttc-cmc.net>
Subject: [VAL] Achilles Heel of EU 2000 Generator?

Hi all,

I recently purchased the Honda genarator, and really loved it, for two tanks
of gas.  I was running Christmas lights with it on the second tank of gas
and shut it down around around 9 PM.  A heavy fog rolled down the river, and
the snow began falling, but the generator was in a shed.  The temps dropped
from low 40's to 20's.  The next night I went to start it and something
broke.  Honda was great and fixed it under waranty.  They said the intake
valve stuck, and the rocker arm cracked.  Now they would not venture further
into what may have happened.  I may have prevented the problem by not
pulling so hard on the rope, but that's just me.  Next time I will make sure
it turns easy.

I have been using the same gas in the ATV's, and could find no water in the
gas.  My load on the generator was about 50%.  The unit was fresh from the
factory, and I did check the oil level when I recieved it.  The octane of
the gas was 86 as Honda recomends.  There was no pinging.

This generator purrs like a kitten, and service from Honda is really great
here.  I would buy again, but has anyone an idea of what may have created
this problem?  I suspect the fog, but it is a long way from the air intake
to the intake valve.

Honda had this generator fixed very fast, but winter storms hit some of the
worst roads we have in Montana, and I just got it back the other day.  Works
fine now.

Comments are appreciated...

JimW

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 17:46:09 -0700
From: Brad Norgaard <stream2699@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Brad's Airstream/toilet opperation?

Hi Gerald,
Good eyes! That toilet was originally out of a '63 Globe Trotter. I don't
have it hooked up to water. I do have a spray nozzle for a kitchen sink and
that is all I use. We do a lot of boondocking and using the water mechanism
on the commode would use too much water. Sorry I can't elaborate on your
concern.

Brad Norgaard
Phoenix
'59 Trade Wind Twin
VAC #2699, TCT 

on 1/7/04 8:52 AM, gshippen at gshippen@xxxxxxxxxx.com wrote:

> Hi Brad,
> 
> Nice work on the Trade Wind.  I noticed that the toilet is identical to the
> toilet in my Globe Trotter.  Does it automatically fill with water or do you
> turn on the knob manually to fill the bowl?  I haven't figured out if mine
> is missing something or if it is a manual operation.
> 
> It is some what of a problem with our four year old...she likes to turn it
> on but forgets to shut it off!
> 
> Gerald

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 20:39:57 -0500
From: "Mr. Joy H. Hansen" <joytbrew@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Brad's Airstream/toilet opperation?

Hi Dr. G. J.

I had to do a lot of work on my '74 Argosy commode as it was defective,
constantly draining water onto the floor when flushed, etc.  Tried
replacements, but due to the surround constraints, I never could find a
suitable replacement other than porcelain.  The porcelain would be too heavy
for the holding tank supported platform and also too expensive.  So, I
worked with home brewed fixes until exasperation forced me to take drastic
steps.

The flush valve is obviously one major typical lead due to thread or valve
body failure.  The not so obvious freeze damaged part is the flush reservoir
in the top of the toilet.  Even if it isn't freeze damaged, the valve
deteriorates and either sticks closed or disintegrates and won't close at
all.  If it sticks, water cannot drain into the bowl when the flush lever is
closed.  If the valve doesn't operate at all, water spills out the valve
(flooding the floor or commode surround) and little water drains into the
commode bowl.

My eventual fix was to eliminate the reservoir.  I can use the spray peddle
to add a small amount of water that helps keep the bowl tidy during use.
With out the small amount of preuse water, the bowl could take much more
cleaning and water than otherwise.

Could be that your commode didn't have this reservoir to add about 4 ounces
to the bowl after the flush gate closes.  Possibly it was bypassed by a
previous owner.  I don't find it a big inconvenience to go without it.  I
would be much more concerned about not having a sprayer as happens with many
of the newer commodes.

Does your commode fill automatically?  Maybe yes, maybe not in it's original
form. :)

BTW, the commode line is very difficult to remove all the water such that
the valve and/or reservoir is not damaged from freeze.  I stopped the
nonsense and use a gallon of RV antifreeze to flush/fill all lines to
winterize my units.

                                                Regards, '74 Argosy, Joy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:49:49 -0800
From: David Pfeffer <pfefferd@xxxxxxxxxx.ibm.com>
Subject: [VAL] '65 Overlander

Folks:

I'm in the market for a 65 Overlander, preferably in Int'l trim.  I'm in
Oregon, so I would prefer a Pacific North West or CA trailer, but will
consider other area's a little further East.  If you should know of anyone
selling or should see something in a local ad, please let me know.

Many thanks,

David

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 20:31:33 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Achilles Heel of EU 2000 Generator?

The intake valve gets a really good sample of the surrounding
atmosphere, it inhales a lot of air that comes out as hot exhaust, but
its cooled going through the carburetor by having to evaporate fuel and
by expanding to a lower pressure. That cools the intake plumbing. My
guess is that the fog and snow condensed around the intake valve stem
and head and when the engine cooled down overnight that condensed water
froze an stuck the valve.

There is a large mechanical advantage between the starter rope and the
intake valve, I'm not sure you'd have noticed the difference between the
stuck valve and the normal compression stroke of the piston.

On other possibility is that there was a fault in the casting for the
rocker arm and that just that much normal operation broke it.

Last week running my big tractor around in the snow, the intake between
the carburetor and the intake manifold stayed covered with frost all the
time I had it running and much of that time it wouldn't idle slowly
because the frost choked off the throttle plate. I needed to have
carburetor heat enabled, but to do that I have to abandon the benefits
of the muffler because the heat parts on the JD-4020 are broken. And its
loud even with good hearing protection with the exhaust going through
the muffler.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:46:25 -0500
From: "T o m" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Achilles Heel of EU 2000 Generator?

One thing you might want to do:  run 89 Octane Silver grade or middle grade
regular unleaded gasoline *instead of* 87 Octane unleaded regular.

The lowest grade 87 Octane gasoline has a higher amount of methanol (or is
it ethanol?) and that is an extremely hot burning fuel.  But, just because
it burns hotter does *not* mean it burns better OR that your engine will
live longer.  Quite the opposite is really the truth.

Unleaded 89 Octane unleaded gasoline will give you longer run times due to
the fact that the mixture of that grade of fuel burns at a more even rate
and it burns cooler.  Ever seen how hot alcohol burns?  Ever seen alcohol
burning and see the blue part of the flame?  Ever burn alcohol and NOT see
the flame but feel the heat?

Next time you use gasoline in that generator use 89 Octane unleaded regular
and make some notes such as run times.  You won't be able to measure the
power output due to the fact that the rpm's are a steady 3600 and the engine
will just sit there and make power.  But, you WILL be able to notate how
much longer the engine was able to make power before needing to be refueled.

There could be more to this engine problem than a stuck valve - but you
didn't say as they wouldn't tell you either.  You just might have had a
burned aluminum piston from the higher heat levels produced by 87 Octane
fuel.  John Deere replaced many mower engines due to the higher heat from 87
Octane fuel and once the dealers "advised" you to step up to 89 Octane
warranty claims for burned pistons dropped dramatically.  There was an
"unscientific study" done concerning this matter and you won't find any
dealer willing to *tell* you to use 89 instead of 87 Octane gasoline but
trust me the switch is worth it.  You will save money due to longer run
times AND your engine will thank you.  Who knows IF your next time offline
with that generator will find you out of warranty?  I wouldn't take the
chance for a few dimes.

Tom
WBCCI 5303

From: "JimW" <jjw@ttc-cmc.net>
Subject: [VAL] Achilles Heel of EU 2000 Generator?


> Hi all,
>
> I recently purchased the Honda genarator, and really loved it, for two
tanks
> of gas.  I was running Christmas lights with it on the second tank of gas
> and shut it down around around 9 PM.  A heavy fog rolled down the river,
and
> the snow began falling, but the generator was in a shed.  The temps
dropped
> from low 40's to 20's.  The next night I went to start it and something
> broke.  Honda was great and fixed it under waranty.  They said the intake
> valve stuck, and the rocker arm cracked.  Now they would not venture
further
> into what may have happened.  I may have prevented the problem by not
> pulling so hard on the rope, but that's just me.  Next time I will make
sure
> it turns easy.
>
> I have been using the same gas in the ATV's, and could find no water in
the
> gas.  My load on the generator was about 50%.  The unit was fresh from the
> factory, and I did check the oil level when I recieved it.  The octane of
> the gas was 86 as Honda recomends.  There was no pinging.
>
> This generator purrs like a kitten, and service from Honda is really great
> here.  I would buy again, but has anyone an idea of what may have created
> this problem?  I suspect the fog, but it is a long way from the air intake
> to the intake valve.
>
> Honda had this generator fixed very fast, but winter storms hit some of
the
> worst roads we have in Montana, and I just got it back the other day.
Works
> fine now.
>
> Comments are appreciated...
>
> JimW

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 22:09:07 -0800
From: "michelle" <safoocat@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Achilles Heel of EU 2000 Generator?

is 89 better for the car as well?
Michelle

"Hope is the golden
bridge that joins
our hearts to
the eternal."
- --Nello Pailini-- 

There was an
"unscientific study" done concerning this matter and you won't find any
dealer willing to *tell* you to use 89 instead of 87 Octane gasoline but
trust me the switch is worth it.  You will save money due to longer run
times AND your engine will thank you.  Who knows IF your next time offline
with that generator will find you out of warranty?  I wouldn't take the
chance for a few dimes.

Tom

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 20:30:28 -0700
From: "Roger Hightower" <rwhigh@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Achilles Heel of EU 2000 Generator?

When I bought my Honda generators the dealer told me to use at least 89
Octane.  The higher I could get, the better.

Roger

Roger Hightower
WBCCI #4165,VAC
1975 31' Sovereign
Mesa, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 22:36:39 -0500
From: "T o m" <tmeeker@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Achilles Heel of EU 2000 Generator?

Yes, I think so.  I know I get better mileage in my Toyota Celica on the
highway running 89 Octane rather than 87 Octane.  I think the cars run
smoother and cooler and that's always a plus where heat is concerned.

Tom

From: "michelle" <safoocat@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 1:09 AM
Subject: Re: [VAL] Achilles Heel of EU 2000 Generator?


> is 89 better for the car as well?
> Michelle

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 22:47:02 -0500
From: "chyde" <brownhyde@primelink1.net>
Subject: [VAL] icing problems

> Last week running my big tractor around in the snow, the intake between
> the carburetor and the intake manifold stayed covered with frost all the
> time I had it running and much of that time it wouldn't idle slowly
> because the frost choked off the throttle plate. I needed to have
> carburetor heat enabled, but to do that I have to abandon the benefits
> of the muffler because the heat parts on the JD-4020 are broken. And its
> loud even with good hearing protection with the exhaust going through
> the muffler.
>
> Gerald J.

Some years ago in my ice racing (car) days we used to have problems with
side draft weber carbs icing up. We ended up making a loop around each carb
with heater hoses then on into the interior heater. It looked a bit weird
but worked really well and we never had a problem again. Your tractor
probably doesn't have heater hoses but I'm sure you could "T" off the rad
hoses and accomplish the same thing. I apologize if this is too far off
topic.
Colin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 22:19:26 -0600
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Achilles Heel of EU 2000 Generator?

Gasoline blends depend on where you are. In Iowa regular unleaded is 87
octane without ethanol. Unleaded plus is generally 89 octane with 10%
ethanol (made from corn). Methanol is wood alcohol and can be harder on
older engine carburetor components. In bigger cities like St. Louis, all
fuels have about 10% ethanol which supplies an oxidizer to reduce
pollution. I can't say what the brews are in Montana. Not likely the
same as Iowa, or urban St. Louis.

Ethanol blends can have a bit higher octane (as they do in Iowa) but the
gasoline part of the brew can also start with a lower octane making 87
octane with ethanol.

Octane ratings are based purely on the knock characteristics of the
fuel, not on combustion temperature. Low octane fuels tend to burn more
rapidly, high octane fuels tend to burn more slowly. Octane is measured
by two methods, motor and research, and often the differing values are
averaged for the number displayed on the pump (when the octane tag says
R + M / 2). In the motor method a special variable compression motor is
used. The compression ratio is raised until the fuel being tested knocks
from excessively fast ignition. Then a blend of octane and another
petroleum fuel (I think it may be pentane but I'm not sure right now) is
varied to make the engine knock the same amount under the same
conditions. Octane tends not to knock so the fuel is given an octane
rating based on the proportion of octane in that test blend. I've
forgotten the details of the research method of measuring octane, but I
could find it if needed.

My fuel injected '98 F-150 small V-8 seems to run smoother on 89 or 90
octane unleaded plus. My '68 JD 4020 runs poorly on ethanol blends. It
runs fine on 87 octane regular Iowa unleaded.

Knocking and preignition doesn't necessarily mean hotter burning, but
faster burning. Its made worse by excessively advanced ignition timing
and lean mixtures. Preignition can cause craters in pistons. Retarded
timing and lean mixtures can burn exhaust valves. Lean mixtures burn
hotter. Monitoring the exhaust temperature is how gas engine mixtures in
small aircraft engines are adjusted in flight. They are run very rich
for takeoff and for landing because the rich condition produces more
power with the least heat hazard to the engine parts. And the rich
mixture tends towards being more reliable during those critical flight
conditions. I leaned the mixture of one of my standby generators while
monitoring the exhaust gas temperature rise and cut its fuel consumption
drastically.

Some vintages of air cooled engines, especially Briggs, have discouraged
using ethanol blends, probably because fuel system parts weren't able to
withstand the solvent action of the ethanol or methanol. Small engines
of ten to 30 or more years ago certainly couldn't withstand alcohol in
the fuel. I have a WW2 vintage generator that is not running because it
got some ethanol blend fuel that softened the varnish on the cork float
and that varnish plugged up the carburetor jets.

Fuel octane ratings, ignition timing, and fuel/air ratios have big
effects on knock, power output, and combustion temperature and those
input variables interact to make conclusions not quite always obvious.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:25:22 -0700
From: "gshippen" <gshippen@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Brad's Airstream/toilet opperation?

Joy,

Gerald Shippen here....my unit does not seem to automatically fill the bowl
and shut off, can not even see any type of mechanism to provide that
service.  I removed the whole unit and replaced the rubber on top of the
flapper which took several weeks to seat and stop leaking H2O into the tank.
It's not a problem to use however it has nagged my "restoration mind-set."
At any rate perhaps someone else on the list can elaborate?  Thanks, Gerald
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mr. Joy H. Hansen" <joytbrew@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [VAL] Brad's Airstream/toilet opperation?


> Hi Dr. G. J.
>
> I had to do a lot of work on my '74 Argosy commode as it was defective,
> constantly draining water onto the floor when flushed, etc.  Tried
> replacements, but due to the surround constraints, I never could find a
> suitable replacement other than porcelain.  The porcelain would be too
heavy
> for the holding tank supported platform and also too expensive.  So, I
> worked with home brewed fixes until exasperation forced me to take drastic
> steps.
>
> The flush valve is obviously one major typical lead due to thread or valve
> body failure.  The not so obvious freeze damaged part is the flush
reservoir
> in the top of the toilet.  Even if it isn't freeze damaged, the valve
> deteriorates and either sticks closed or disintegrates and won't close at
> all.  If it sticks, water cannot drain into the bowl when the flush lever
is
> closed.  If the valve doesn't operate at all, water spills out the valve
> (flooding the floor or commode surround) and little water drains into the
> commode bowl.
>
> My eventual fix was to eliminate the reservoir.  I can use the spray
peddle
> to add a small amount of water that helps keep the bowl tidy during use.
> With out the small amount of preuse water, the bowl could take much more
> cleaning and water than otherwise.
>
> Could be that your commode didn't have this reservoir to add about 4
ounces
> to the bowl after the flush gate closes.  Possibly it was bypassed by a
> previous owner.  I don't find it a big inconvenience to go without it.  I
> would be much more concerned about not having a sprayer as happens with
many
> of the newer commodes.
>
> Does your commode fill automatically?  Maybe yes, maybe not in it's
original
> form. :)
>
> BTW, the commode line is very difficult to remove all the water such that
> the valve and/or reservoir is not damaged from freeze.  I stopped the
> nonsense and use a gallon of RV antifreeze to flush/fill all lines to
> winterize my units.
>
>                                                 Regards, '74 Argosy, Joy
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
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------------------------------

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