VAL Digest V1 #103

VAL Digest          Sunday, December 21 2003          Volume 01 : Number 103




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Topics in Today's Digest:

[VAL] Maurice Tierney Out of Office
[VAL] David Pfeffer/Beaverton/IBM is out of the office.
[VAL] Glyn's A/C upgrade
[VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #102 - Rooftop A/C?
Re: : [VAL] Anyone out there?  and AC installation
Re: [VAL] Anyone out there?  and AC installation
RE: [VAL] Forwarded message
Re: : [VAL] Anyone out there?  and AC installation
Re: [VAL] Anyone out there?  and AC installation
Re: [VAL] AC installation
[VAL] 1966 caravel
[VAL] Monster File
[VAL] Monster File II
Re: [VAL] 1966 caravel
Re: [VAL] 1966 caravel
Re: [VAL] AC installation/ what does it weight?

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Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 01:17:26 -0500
From: "publisher@xxxxxxxxxx.com" <publisher@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: [VAL] Maurice Tierney Out of Office

I will be out of the office from December 15th through December 31st. Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 00:06:03 -0700
From: David Pfeffer <pfefferd@xxxxxxxxxx.ibm.com>
Subject: [VAL] David Pfeffer/Beaverton/IBM is out of the office.

I will be out of the office starting December 19, 2003 and will not return
until January 5, 2004.

I will be out of the office starting 08/16 returning on 08/25.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:14:48 -0800
From: "Richard        McFarland" <estatewagons@xxxxxxxxxx.att.net>
Subject: [VAL] Glyn's A/C upgrade

Glyn - you can ask a question and you'll get many different points of
view...

I happen to be one of the anti-roof mount a/c people...

It's not just the looks and weight thing - I fight allergies like crazy -
and while I like a/c - and often need it - I can't handle it blowing right
at me and depending on the size of a trailer - that can be an issue.

I happen to be "high maintenance"...on this issue.

I sure wish I did not have allergies...oh well.

For me - "ducted" a/c is of great interest - not just vent directed from a
common single location.  I realize that cool air falls and an upper location
can be most efficient...but in a small space...I'll opt for a little
inefficiency - if I can diffuse the output of air away from me - and if
there is any way of limiting the noise and vibration...so much the better.
If you are using your trailer as an office - this might be of interest to
you.

I realize that the newer models are probably much-much quieter - I've only
experienced the older units.  The rooftop unit in my 1980 Avion 34'er
sounded like an commercial air compressor...well sort of.  It certainly was
not whisper quiet...

If you are not planning to tow your Caravel - then you have the potential
for being very creative as to installations.  You might investigate the
possibility of building a small "service" building for your trailer - neat
and tidy and weathertight etc...??? and it could be the source for your hot
water and a/c (small household heatpump type) that was then piped and ducted
into the trailer???  With a little care it could be done in a way that was
not too invasive to the trailer in case you decide to sell to someone who
wants to travel with it.

This might sound complicated - but you live in an area not known for
severely cold weather - and what with the sometimes higher costs inherent in
RV specialty appliances etc...a base-station service shed might not be all
that expensive - considering the convenience of a domestic sized hot water
heater and lots of nice and quiet ducted heat and a/c.

If you've never spent any time in a small trailer with a rooftop a/c unit
running - you might do a little investigating before you start your upgrade.

Just my own thoughts and brainstorming.

I recently sold my Avion - before I had the chance to upgrade it's a/c
system - so I plan to do a modified system when I find my Airstream.  I have
my eye on
the Dometic Corps. Duo-Therm Cool Cat.  It's an a/c and heat pump system for
small trailers that can be used by itself - one self contained unit - or a
ducting system can be added. It's a little tricky finding info on it - for
some reason it is not listed on the regular Dometic/Duo-Therm site.

Here is a link to an old article on it -
http://www.rvamerica.com/rvamerica_magazine/dometic_warms.htm

and I've found it listed on this site - which I hope is still current.

http://www.advrv.com/ac.htm

I've not seen the system first hand - but at least at first glance it sounds
potentially interesting.
Good Luck.  RL

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 03:22:00 -0600
From: waymark1@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] Re: VAL Digest V1 #102 - Rooftop A/C?

I agree. I'm already stuck with a rooftop A/C but if I had a choice I'd
opt for a central heat pump/furnace mounted under the oven or under the
floor. Easier installation and removal (they all die someday) than having
to have a hoist set up to deal with its 120#+ on the roof.
As far as doing w/o A/C, our trailer gets like an oven on a hot day, just
like any vehicle and like any house with a 6'-2" ceiling height. The
reflective aluminum skin helps I'm sure but the only 2" insulation
doesn't do a whole lot. Parks with lots of trees are nice but are not
everywhere.
Most roof vents for many years have been 14" square. Our trailer has 4
roof vent holes with the A/C in the second from the front. If it had
those nifty $200+ each powered roof vents maybe we wouldn't need A/C but
since we have a heat pump it's good heat in cool weather.
As to wind drag from rooftop A/C, the A/C is in a sort of "dead" area
along with TV antenna, sewer vents, and roof vents. There is actually
quite a lot of lift on the roof at speed. The air stream does not follow
the roof closely. Awnings also look like a lot of drag but the same thing
applies. They are in a "dead" area on the side.
Most anything back a foot or two from the curved front edges and
"corners" that does not stick out more than a few inches doesn't have
much if any effect on aerodynamic drag.
Source for concepts: Automotive Aerodynamics (by Norbye?) book loaned out
to auto tech friend in OR.
The A/C adds at least 6" to the clearance height of my trailer - I'd hate
to scrape it off on a gas station awning or tree limb.
Al

> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 18:13:30 -0600
> From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" 
> <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> Subject: Re: [VAL] Anyone out there?  and AC installation
> 
> I dislike AC. I dislike AC on a camper more. So I'm not much of an
authority on AC. But I believe the AC doesn't get cut into the roof, it
replaces the existing vent on the Caravel. The wiring diagrams in my
manual hint that the 120 volt circuit is stubbed in quite close to the
vent for the AC. But the manual clearly states that the AC option should
be installed by the Airstream dealer.
> 
> Fundamentally (besides the noise and heat the AC adds to the
campground), the AC mounted up high hurts the lateral stability of the
trailer giving it a greater tendency to roll over. And I think it hurts
the appearance, but them I'm biased as I admitted up top. It surely adds
a significant wind drag on the road.
> 
> There have been discussion of AC installations on this and the previous
VAC list which should be in the archives. One suggestion is to mount the
air conditioner down low under a seat or in the bottom of a cabinet
venting it out the bottom skin and through the side wall. Makes for a
better weight distribution.
> 
> Gerald J.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 06:01:14 -0500
From: "Beekman" <beek@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: : [VAL] Anyone out there?  and AC installation

    >All,

   > It's awful quiet out there today.  Does anybody have an answer for me
as
>to how to determine where the AC unit gets cut into the roof of my '69
>Caravel.  (See previous post of mine today on the subject).

    >Thanks,

    >Glyn


My '67 Ambassador lived much of its life in Alaska before I bought it in
South Carolina. The original AC had been removed years ago and the roof
patched inside and out with a large sheet of aluminum. I bought a new
Carrier unit and pulled the big patches off the roof. I discovered that the
original AC had separate units for the condensor and the evaporator like a
home central system. Nothing went through the roof but the refrigeration
tubes and some wiring. The new units have condensor/evaporator in one unit
and blow conditioned air into the trailer, therefore they need a larger hole
than the original did. A template was furnished with the new unit and the
hole specified fit nicely between the top bows of my trailer......the
original power cable was still in position and functional, too. Took me
about a days work to install. The hardest thing was cutting out the hole on
the inside with the aluminum chips raining down on me. Everything's cool
now, though.........and when I'm not travelling in my trailer, I can use it
to hang meat.

Beekman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:39:39 -0500
From: Blair <hitek_airstream@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Anyone out there?  and AC installation

>Glyn -


I've found the tech support and factory tech's both in person and over
the phone to be very interested and helpful.  They are usually my
second opinion to many of the things learned here, especially if there are 
differing answers given.

Good Luck and Enjoy your A/S

Blair

Hangin' in Key West
Because time fly's


>     Blair, I should have thought to contact Airstream directly and I'm
>grateful for the suggestion.  For some reason I was under the impression
>that Airstream was not used owner friendly.  I'll phone them tonight as soon
>as I send this out to you all.
>
>     Thanks again to you all,
>
>     Glyn
>     1969 Caravel #508
>     Santa Monica CA
>     Hers:  Puny 1992 Toyota Celica, 4 cyl.
>     His:  Somewhat puny 1995 Camry wagon, V-6
>     Tow vehicle:  No plans
>
>
>
> > From: Blair <hitek_airstream@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
> > Reply-To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> > Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:37:28 -0500
> > To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> > Subject: Re: [VAL] Anyone out there?  and AC installation
> >
> > Glyn -
> >
> > Your best bet is call the tech service folks in Jackson Center, OH. (Check
> > web site for number)
> >
> > Leave a message as to your question and they will call you back with the
> > correct answer.
> >
> > I can't remember what the dimension was from the front end cap edge but
> > they will tell you.
> > I think it was 60 some inches on my 64 Tradewind, but may not be the same
> > for yours.
> >
> > Blair
> > Hangin' in Key West
> >
> >
> > At 06:41 PM 12/19/2003, you wrote:
> >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >>
> >> All,
> >>
> >> It's awful quiet out there today.  Does anybody have an answer for me as
> >> to how to determine where the AC unit gets cut into the roof of my '69
> >> Caravel.  (See previous post of mine today on the subject).
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Glyn
> >>
> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> >> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
> >
> > To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
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>
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>
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:14:56 -0500
From: "Edward Emerick" <EEMERICK@xxxxxxxxxx.rr.com>
Subject: RE: [VAL] Forwarded message

Hello,
I have a 68 30' Sovereign. With my truck (98 Suburban 1/2 ton), the
kids, dog, cat, bikes, girl stuff (I'm the only guy in the thing other
than my dog) and provisions for an International Rally (i.e. not much
food!) I weigh 13,500 going down the road. The 1/2 ton is too small for
the job but that is what I am working with right now. You have to keep
an eye on the weight but it will go down the road in a safe manner with
that size truck. I've pulled the mountains but I don't pass a thing!
Ed
WBCCI/VAC 4425
68 Sovereign
59 Traveler

- -----Original Message-----
From: valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com
[mailto:valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Gerald N.
Johnson, electrical engineer
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 11:55 PM
To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] Forwarded message


My '68 manual says the 30' Sovereign weighs nearly 5000 pounds empty
with a 400 pound tongue weight. Add maybe 1500 pounds for provisions and
stuff. Probably raise the tongue weight to 600 pounds.

Then the tow vehicle needs a proper brake controller tuned to the
trailer load and the load equalizing hitch, probably with sway control.
And these are often demanded by state laws these days. When the tow
vehicle weighs less than the trailer, its easy for life to be exciting
on the road. Unnecessarily exciting. When the tow vehicle has a short
wheel base control is too often lost and then all can be lost, tow
vehicle, trailer, and lives.

A 3/4 ton pickup properly equipped with transmission cooler, brake
controller, and load equalizing hitch should handle the 30' Sovereign
adequately. A 1 ton is overkill. A 1/2 ton is a little puny for all
situations. It will do on the straight and level, but not all the world
is straight and level.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:04:52 -0800
From: Glyn Judson <glynjudson@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: : [VAL] Anyone out there?  and AC installation

    Beekman,

    Thank you my friend, reading that was insightful as well as giving me a
good chuckle at the end.

    Glyn

> From: "Beekman" <beek@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
> Reply-To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 06:01:14 -0500
> To: <valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
> Subject: Re: : [VAL] Anyone out there?  and AC installation
> 
>> All, 
>> It's awful quiet out there today.  Does anybody have an answer
>> Thanks, 
>> Glyn 
> My '67 Ambassador lived much of its life in Alaska before I bought it in
> South Carolina................... Everything's cool
> now, though.........and when I'm not travelling in my trailer, I can use it
> to hang meat.

> Beekman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:36:21 -0800
From: Glyn Judson <glynjudson@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Anyone out there?  and AC installation

    Blair,

    I called them by phone last night and left a brief but complete
description of my intent, explaining that it would be a unit from the same
year, asking about prewiring, pan hoses being in place, etc.  We'll see in a
couple of days what they all have to say.

    Thank you again for the suggestion to contact them.

    Glyn

> From: Blair <hitek_airstream@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
> Reply-To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 08:39:39 -0500
> To: valist@xxxxxxxxxx.com
> Subject: Re: [VAL] Anyone out there?  and AC installation
> 
>> Glyn -
> I've found the tech support and factory tech's both in person and over
> the phone to be very interested and helpful.  They are usually my
> second opinion to many of the things learned here, especially if there are
> differing answers given.
> Good Luck and Enjoy your A/S
> Blair 
> Hangin' in Key West
> Because time fly's
>> Blair, I should have thought to contact Airstream directly and I'm
>> grateful for the suggestion.  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 13:58:10 -0500
From: joepatwink@xxxxxxxxxx.net (Joe Winkler)
Subject: Re: [VAL] AC installation

After reading all the input to Gynn about AC do's and don't I wanted to ask about our AC. We 
have a new to us 1964 Tradewind. The AC is in the middle vent, it is wired with an extension 
cord that runs from the right side cabinet/closet duplex receptical up to the unit. I has no 
name that I can read on the inside or the outside. The PO said it works, we just got the trailer 
in October and have not tried it yet.
  My question is does anyone have a guess what it is? Its yellow and fiberglass it that helps. 
Also, what does one of those things weigh.
  Joe in Wyoming

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 16:27:25 EST
From: Hamgam2000@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: [VAL] 1966 caravel

I would like to introduce ourselves to your site and look for info. 

We have a 66 Caravel J-0176671. We are contemplating doing a body off 
restoration or just replacing the floor which is the most immediate concern to us at 
the moment.

My question is are there any folks out there who have done the same and have 
a website or manual on "how to and what to look out for " during the 
restoration?

Also I am interested on mods that can bring the old girl up to the 21st 
century without disturbing the feel of a stock "66" Caravel?

Thanks for any input. I have been reading this website for months and am 
trying to get as much info before I start.

Thanks, 
Mark Hamilton
Shrewsbury, Vermont

and yes it is very cold and very snowy here!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 14:48:52 -0800
From: "Gary Quamen" <g_quamen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Monster File

Hey Glyn:

Before I spend a hunk of my afternoon downloading your 1.5 MB file can I
have a clue what it is?

You must have DSL or something.

GQ

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 15:08:26 -0800
From: "Gary Quamen" <g_quamen@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: [VAL] Monster File II

> Hey Glyn:

> Before I spend a hunk of my afternoon downloading your 1.5 MB file can I
have a clue what it is?

> You must have DSL or something.


> GQ

Sorry Group.  Don't exactly know how THAT happened.  Meant to be off-list.

GQ '67 Safari
4082 in CA

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 18:41:04 -0500
From: "chyde" <brownhyde@primelink1.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 1966 caravel

> We have a 66 Caravel J-0176671. We are contemplating doing a body off
> restoration or just replacing the floor which is the most immediate
concern to us at
> the moment.
>
> My question is are there any folks out there who have done the same and
have
> a website or manual on "how to and what to look out for " during the
> restoration?

Greetings Mark and welcome to the List,
I live in Plattsburgh NY (about 2 1/2 hours away) and I am in the process of
replacing the floor in one of my trailers, a 57 Sovereign of the Road. Don't
underestimate the amount of work required to replace the whole floor. This
job requires the removal of everything in the trailer along with all of the
lower interior panels before you can even see how to attack it. If you only
have a couple of areas with rot, you can just repair locally. If you search
the list archives I'm sure you will come up with a lot of insight before you
dive into it. A lot of listees have had similar issues. If you feel like
having a look at one that is apart and are interested in driving 2 1/2
hours, email me off list and we can make arrangements. I also have a 66
Safari that is partially gutted right now which may also help out.
Colin (also freezing along with the flu)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 18:53:06 -0600
From: Herb Spies <spies@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] 1966 caravel

This is a set of pictures showing the repair of my Globetrotter's floor 
from the door forward. The entire floor in the front was replaced using 
2 sections of plywood.  Separating the new floor into 2 sections allowed 
me to slip the pieces under the U channel where the floor is attached to 
the aluminum frame. Note that I used wood blocks in the front to keep 
the body of the trailer at the right height above the frame while all 
the floor was gone.

http://www.nwflorida.net/gt00005.htm

chyde wrote:

>>We have a 66 Caravel J-0176671. We are contemplating doing a body off
>>restoration or just replacing the floor which is the most immediate
>>    
>>
>concern to us at
>  
>
>>the moment.
>>
>>My question is are there any folks out there who have done the same and
>>    
>>
>have
>  
>
>>a website or manual on "how to and what to look out for " during the
>>restoration?
>>    
>>
>
>Greetings Mark and welcome to the List,
>I live in Plattsburgh NY (about 2 1/2 hours away) and I am in the process of
>replacing the floor in one of my trailers, a 57 Sovereign of the Road. Don't
>underestimate the amount of work required to replace the whole floor. This
>job requires the removal of everything in the trailer along with all of the
>lower interior panels before you can even see how to attack it. If you only
>have a couple of areas with rot, you can just repair locally. If you search
>the list archives I'm sure you will come up with a lot of insight before you
>dive into it. A lot of listees have had similar issues. If you feel like
>having a look at one that is apart and are interested in driving 2 1/2
>hours, email me off list and we can make arrangements. I also have a 66
>Safari that is partially gutted right now which may also help out.
>Colin (also freezing along with the flu)
>
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>
>To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 18:03:03 -0700
From: "gshippen" <gshippen@xxxxxxxxxx.com>
Subject: Re: [VAL] AC installation/ what does it weight?

Hi Joe,

I can tell you the AC unit for our Globe Trotter must have weighed around
100 pounds or at least it seemed that much when I took it off by myself.
You can imagine I was standing astraddle of the thing lifting up on it while
balancing on some plywood that was padded by carpet on the roof of the
trailer.  The unit was well adhered to the roof with vulcum sealant.  Yours
sounds like a newer model.
Happy trails, GAS

------------------------------

End of VAL Digest V1 #103
*************************


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