VAL Digest V1 #10

VAL Digest        Thursday, September 18 2003        Volume 01 : Number 010




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Topics in Today's Digest:

Re: [VAL] furnace question
Re: [VAL] Floorcloths
Re: [VAL] Floorcloths
Re: [VAL] furnace question
[VAL] Battery question
Re: [VAL] Battery question
Re: [VAL] Battery question
Re: [VAL] Battery question
Re: [VAL] Battery question
[VAL] Black tank valve, Question # 9,994.07
Re: [VAL] Battery question
Re: [VAL] Battery question
Re: [VAL] furnace question

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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 00:24:27 -0600 (MDT)
From: forrest@xxxxxxxxxx.org
Subject: Re: [VAL] furnace question

Dr. Johnson, I wonder if you could advise me on my heater project. I have the
original DuoTherm furnace in my '66 Globe Trotter. It is a convection or gravity
style heater only. Last year I finished rebuilding it. It is now powder coated and
has a new/old stock burner and regulator. The temperature is controlled by a
thermobulb that runs to the regulator. It heats well, although sometimes I still have
trouble keeping the pilot lit. I found that its efficiency improves dramatically by
facing a small fan at the base of the grill. That helps force cold air into the
bottom which in turn forces the heated air out of the top. It really is remarkable
how much better the furnace works. Of course this is why new trailers have forced air
furnaces. What I've now done is attach two 4.72 inch diameter 12 volt DC fans
directly to the bottom of the grill at the intake so that I can stop using the 110
volt AC free standing fan. The fans are mostly used in computers and each use only
about 0.32 Amps and move about 85 CFM each. I can simply attach a switch to turn them
off and on as needed, but what I really want to do is run the power through a
thermostat so that as the furnace heats up to about 130 degrees the fans turn on.
There isn't much room between the grill and the furnace, so whatever type of
thermostat I use has to be fairly small. It also has to be the cooling type so that
the contacts close when the temperature goes up. I think I could canabalize this type
of contact from a household mechanical heating and cooling thermostat, but the
cheapest ones are $20 and the temperature setting is designed to close at
temperatures below 80 degrees. I've not been able to find anyone selling thermobulbs,
and although I think that might be the way to go, I'm not entirely sure how they
work. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Forrest McClure

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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:23:19 EDT
From: MaryDotson@xxxxxxxxxx.com
Subject: Re: [VAL] Floorcloths

Good idea about painting, except there are problems with that...Right now my 
subflooring still has the original lino tiles glued down--so I'd have to 
remove them and sand off the remaining glue off the subfloor (and hope there are no 
wood tears).  As I mentioned, I plan to tack the canvas down at the edges, 
which should (I hope) control shift and slip.  The other thing I like about the 
floor cloth is that it's relatively disposable--when it wears out (or when we 
can afford a new lino floor) we can simply lift it out.  
_________________
In a message dated 9/17/03 1:12:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
valist-admin@xxxxxxxxxx.com writes:

> Why not just paint the pattern on the floor? Then it won't slip and
> won't interfere with the drawers. I'm thinking of doing that to the sub
> floor in a new house and neglecting other floor coverings for a few
> years.
> 
> Gerald J.

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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:49:49 -0500
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Floorcloths

For sure, painting the sub floor isn't perfection. The sub floor
material tends to be soft and so locally dented. Wood tears from pulling
up old tile and scraping off the glue would be an annoyance. Like the
roughly sanded surface of my OSB house floor. Solvents and sanding can
take care of much of the tile glue, wood fillers and floor levelers can
take care of the big dings. There are a very few of the floor levelers
that are sold to level the sub floor under tile or vinyl sheet goods
that are rated to be walked on directly. I was thinking of a product
called Durham's Rock Hard Putty, but they say it will pop out of thin
depressions. It depends on expanding a little while curing to lock
itself into holes so those holes need to be undercut. They say on their
web page, that it you used it to smooth a dinged up door panel, that it
would go on and smooth perfectly but pop off the first time you slammed
the door hard. So that wouldn't be nice for a floor filler.

I'm thinking for a trailer floor, a bit of Bondo for the big oops, and
some ordinary wood filler before sanding for the little ones, then paint
will make a fine smooth surface. It won't stay smooth because the sub
floor is softer than hardwood. But it will stay painted. And for
occasional maintenance (every few years) a few drops of filler, or
Bondo, a little sanding and a fresh spot or coat of paint will fix it
right up. And when you decide to put down tile, vinyl, or linoleum, the
painted surface should accept the adhesive nicely with a little
scratching and cleaning. And it will clean better than the bare wood
because kitchen spills won't have soaked into the wood.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:49:46 -0500
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] furnace question

Industrial thermostats are available adjustable for your temperature
range. I think I'd go with a cooling thermostat or a heat/cooling
thermostat mounted at the air outlet. Some of those will go to 90 and
I'd like the fan running from the furnace at that temperature. Its more
comfortable than waiting for 130. I see one at www.mcmaster.com, their
catalog 17225K52, but they don't show the range. Its $14.97 in my
printed catalog.

Remote bulb industrial thermostats often have a double throw switch so
you have your choice of open on rise or close on rise. In this catalog
they run $41 and up (to $240 for waterproof and 305 for hazardous
location!).

W.W. Grainger (I think www.grainger.com) has a wider selection than
McMaster-Carr. They will also have fixed temperature thermostats
equivalent to those from Klixon that have a mounting flange and a pair
of terminals. You want the Normally OPEN variety (closes on temperature
rise), probably 40 o4 500C. I find such in Digi-Key's printed catalog
(www.digikey.com. Their encapsulated with leads don't go that low in
temperature, but the metal cased, more classic (and handle more
current), 400 C is $10.80, their catalog number 317-1093-ND and 500 C is
$9.00, their catalog number 317-1094-ND. They'll charge a $5 fee for
orders under $25 and probably about $3 shipping. In my 1996 Grainger
catalog, they call them "Snap Disc Controls." The run about $6.46 each
net price. Their catalog number 2E245 closes at 1100F, opens at 90.
Their 2E246 closes at 120 opens at 110. Their 2E247 closes at 130 opens
at 115. Grainger takes phone orders better than walk in these days.
These same parts with different part numbers should be universally
available as appliance parts, though if the appliance parts store only
things by manufacturer's part number crossing to the specifications may
be a pain.

I'd think that the ordinary wall thermostat set up for cooling mounted
just above the furnace heat outlet would run the fans nicely set to 90
without modifications. It would miss some of the temperature rise but
would catch enough convection to operate somewhere above 90 and likely
below 130. The standard A/C thermostat from a home center.

Grainger and McMaster-Carr like to think they are industrial only, but
these days they take credit cards on phone orders and all you have to do
is invent a company name to go with your address and they will sell.
Digi-Key and the local appliance parts stores are less picky but more
costly. Some appliance parts stores can probably cross to the Grainger
part number because they buy their stock from Grainger.

The disk type thermostats are designed to mount in a hole in the duct
exposing the disk side to the air flow while keeping the wiring out of
the air flow.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:12:16 -0700
From: Joann Wheatley <jwheatle@xxxxxxxxxx.edu>
Subject: [VAL] Battery question

I am getting close to the time to start thinking about batteries for 
the rebuilt '57 Bubble. I have ordered a converter and charge wizard 
from Randy and now I'm wondering: Do I need two 6V batteries or two 
12V's? Also, with two 6's would they be hooked up parallel or in series 
to deliver 12V? I had an old MG that had 2 6's in lieu of a 12v but I 
always get the terms mixed up "parallel & series".
    I started doing a little test polishing today, both by hand and 
using a little 2-handed $20 machine from Wally. Now I'm off trying to 
find replacement pads for polish and for buffing. I also have a little 
B & D portable screwdriver and if I can find a little polish attachment 
I'll also try that. I have finally figured out that it's dumb to use 
just one technique ALL DAY. Can you say "repetitious movement syndrome" 
?
    Took the vent out and tomorrow the Fantastic Fan goes in. (Chuck: 
are you listening?).
thanks for any advice on the batteries.
Jo Ann, the freeloader

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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:51:36 -0500
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Battery question

Series: Like a stack of flash light batteries, negative to one end,
intermediate connections + of one battery to - of the next, positive
load to the other end of the string.

Parallel: All - to - both battery and load. All + to +.

You you makes your choice and makes up your cables. Both work. Each has
its own failure modes and costs and the cabling is different.

In 6 volt batteries the best choice is the one made for golf carts. The
few other choices are far less common or cost effective. In 12 volts
batteries the choices are greater.

With two 6 volt batteries in series, you get ampere hours at 12 volts
equal to the ampere rating of the weakest battery in the series string.

With two 12 volt batteries in parallel you get the ampere hours about
equal to the sum of the two battery capacities.

Batteries in series, if one dies it generally won't kill the other one.
In parallel, if one gets a shorted cell, it will kill the other one. If
neither fails that catastrophically, either connection gives almost the
same total watt hours per cubic foot. The 6 volt batteries in series,
may give a few percent more capacity because there are fewer cells and
fewer cell spacers and fewer cell connections to take space that's not
used for storing energy.

Cables are a little easier to make for two 6 volt batteries in series.
The main + and - cables are the same as for one 12 volt battery, then
the cable between the batteries is short and has one size of post
connector on each end. Putting 12 volt batteries in parallel you
probably want short positive and negative cables to a junction block
then sturdy cables from those two posts to the charge controller and
load distribution fuse block. In both cases you want to use LARGE
cables, larger than you will find at Walmart. Go to NAPA and ask for 0
or 1 gauge cables the length you need. They should have the cable for
connecting the 6 volt batteries in series too. They might have positive
and negative cables with two battery post connections on each for
connecting 12 batteries in parallel neatly also.

Tractors, trucks, busses, and campers have used both connections (but
probably not at the same time in the same vehicle, though that's not
impossible) and there's no good electrical arguments for one over the
other. There's more variety in 12 volt batteries. There's a bit more
capacity in 6 volt batteries connected for 12 volts in the same space.
There are fewer cells to check water in using the two 6 volt batteries,
and deep cycle batteries working hard do need water added most
regularly. Distilled water only. So put them where you can get at them
to check and fill.

As for polishing, most I've read about on this list have used far larger
polishing tools than you are trying and still have taken a long time.
Polishing a 9" circle gets 4 times the area per hour than polishing a
4.5" circle and improves the odds of getting it polished uniformly.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:11:54 -0400
From: Matt Worner <wornmatt@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Battery question

Joann,

Have you any photos posted anywhere of your Bubble?  We have a '57 
sitting in the barn in NM that is going to be one of my first projects 
once the move from northern NJ is complete.  See the folder at:

	http://community.webshots.com/user/wornmatt

What (if anything) have you done with the cabinetry in the bubble?  I am 
informed by another member of the WDCU that the plywood is elm, which of 
course is now irreplaceable, and can be matched quite well with ash if 
any pieces need replacement or augmentation.

<snip> Do I need two 6V batteries or two 12V's?

One 12 volt will service the load.  A second will add more "run time" 
but also more weight which must be properly distributed.

> Also, with two 6's would they be hooked up parallel or in series to 
> deliver 12V? 

Series (fuse block to [+ Battery 1][ - Battery 1] to [+ Battery 2] 
[- Battery 2] to commons of loads)

  I always get the terms mixed up "parallel & series

Series is + of one battery to - of the next.  Battery voltages add up, 
ampacities stay the same.  Parallel is + of one battery to + of next, - 
to -.  Ampacities add up, voltages stay the same.

>  <snip>

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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:54:57 -0700
From: Joann Wheatley <jwheatle@xxxxxxxxxx.edu>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Battery question

Matt and Gerald: Thanks for the info on the batteries. I think I'll go 
with two twelve since I had purchased a 12v refrigerator. That plus the 
converter (when I can) and the generator should keep me charged up! If 
there's still an energy gap, I'll put up one or two solar panels.
   I have pics of Bubbles but haven't posted them yet since that will 
require some time to learn on my part and actually on a roll right now 
reworking the tongue and hitch which had a very bumpy, evil looking 
silver paint job all glooped onto it. More grinder time but now the 
hitch catch assembly (I make these words up but maybe that's its real 
name) works very much more smoothly. I checked out your pics and will 
go back and study them. I'll email you (Matt) a list of stuff I've done 
so far.
Jo Ann

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:18:24 -0500
From: "Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer" <geraldj@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Battery question

Ah, Joann, you MISSED the point of the whole exercise. With two 6 volt
batteries in series you get 12 volts, just like you get with one or more
12 volt batteries (the extra batteries paralleled). So your 12 volt
appliances, lamps, and charger work just the same with either two 6 in
series or any number of 12 in parallel. Your charging converter may not
like being on a small generator and the small generator my not like it.
You won't like the generator's noise and the long time it takes to
charge. Solar panels aren't a perfect energy addition either, they work
best when properly oriented, and are expensive per watt. You may have to
reduce energy consumption if there's an energy gap. More efficient
lamps, not using the microwave from the battery, major things like that.

Gerald J.
- -- 
Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
Reproduction by permission only.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:52:18 -0700
From: Jeffrey & Daile Engle <eMac1@xxxxxxxxxx.US>
Subject: [VAL] Black tank valve, Question # 9,994.07

Ok, another question for all.... those people who have been under their 
trailer and pulled these things apart might appreciate this small 
tid-bit.... ok, this black/white adapter goes into the tank with vulkum 
and a hose clamp like the book says..... why? is there some some reason 
why it can't be put into the tank in a more permanent fashion? like the 
gray tank (my grey tank that is) so that there's not a chance later on 
that it would leak there? I know that this question seems a bit petty 
in nature, but who knows, I get the funny feeling that some of  you 
will be there some day as well. Charlie, the box came today! thanks for 
the bubble wrap! Ha, Ha!! (thought for sure I'd get peanuts after the 
last return I sent you!) I just wish that I'd gotten a second valve 
from you at the time I ordered the other stuff, I could've had it back 
together this afternoon.... Oh well, waiting till monday.... Thanks 
all! Jeff  (77 sovereign)

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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:55:01 -0700
From: Joann Wheatley <jwheatle@xxxxxxxxxx.edu>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Battery question

Microwave? Hey, I'm shopping for a wood stove!  Other than a few lights 
(LED &/or fluorescent lamps), the Refrigerator is it for me. Everything 
else is propane. And the Honda EU2000 is very quiet - I've heard them 
running. And what does that mean, "my charging converter may not like 
being on a small generator"? It has a choice? Who's in charge here 
anyway? Why would the Honda and the Inteli not get along? And how could 
two 6v's = two 12's? I didn't fluck algebra you know.
Jo Ann
On Wednesday, September 17, 2003, at 07:18 PM, Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, 
electrical engineer wrote:

> Ah, Joann, you MISSED the point of the whole exercise. With two 6 volt
> batteries in series you get 12 volts, just like you get with one or 
> more
> 12 volt batteries (the extra batteries paralleled). So your 12 volt
> appliances, lamps, and charger work just the same with either two 6 in
> series or any number of 12 in parallel. Your charging converter may not
> like being on a small generator and the small generator my not like it.
> You won't like the generator's noise and the long time it takes to
> charge. Solar panels aren't a perfect energy addition either, they work
> best when properly oriented, and are expensive per watt. You may have 
> to
> reduce energy consumption if there's an energy gap. More efficient
> lamps, not using the microwave from the battery, major things like 
> that.
>
> Gerald J.
> -- 
> Entire content copyright Dr. Gerald N. Johnson, electrical engineer.
> Reproduction by permission only.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> When replying to a message. please delete all unnecessary original text
>
> To unsubscribe or change to a digest format, please go to
> http://www.tompatterson.com/VAC/VAList/listoffice.html

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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:18:10 -0400
From: Daisy Welch <jtdjtd@xxxxxxxxxx.net>
Subject: Re: [VAL] Battery question

Joann: My Honda and my Intellipower have a happy relationship.

Two sizes would give you 12v, or one 12v is good too. I only have 1 12v 
bat.  The real deal is amp hours. how many hours of juice you get out of 
the battery(ies) before it's needing its fix. 2 12v batts would double 
your amp hours.

Joann Wheatley wrote:

> Microwave? Hey, I'm shopping for a wood stove!  Other than a few lights 
> (LED &/or fluorescent lamps), the Refrigerator is it for me. Everything 
> else is propane. And the Honda EU2000 is very quiet - I've heard them 
> running. And what does that mean, "my charging converter may not like 
> being on a small generator"? It has a choice? Who's in charge here 
> anyway? Why would the Honda and the Inteli not get along? And how could 
> two 6v's = two 12's? I didn't fluck algebra you know.
> Jo Ann

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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:01:55 -0600 (MDT)
From: forrest@xxxxxxxxxx.org
Subject: Re: [VAL] furnace question

Thanks for all the great information on thermostates Dr. Johnson.

Forrest

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End of VAL Digest V1 #10
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